Flash / Strobe Topics Flash Options and Pocket Wizards

[Timskis6]

I'm looking to expand my flash photography very broadly. I'd greatly appreciate any input on flash options for use with PW's, to be used in full manual only.

Here's the requirements for the flashes:
1) Full manual control
2) Zoom control (preferably from wide to tele with a stop in between)
3) PC synch port
4) Low price
5) GN of about 50
6) 4 batteries

I'm looking at getting 2 flashes for off-camera use only (on light stands, etc.) which will complement my FL-50R.

I'm also a bit confused on PW's - the Plus II unit is used as either a tranceiver or receiver. If used as a receiver, it's only capable via a PC synch cord, correct? The only reason I'm asking is to make sure I get the correct corresponding manual flashes.

Any thoughts?

[whaleshark]

Hi Tim,

lkinney posted this last week on "Radio Triggered Camera & Flash". It's still on page one of this forum.
http://forum.fourthirdsphoto.com/showthread.php?t=58757

A lot of studio and portrait photographers prefer the Alien Bee brand of strobe lighting. I don't know much about them but if you find Marc on dpreview OTF he can tell you about his. With a PC sync chord it may be better and easier to use.

One big limitation of the Oly FL-50 is the recycle times after multiple flashes. That is, if you trigger it about 10 times in rapid succession, you're suposed to let them cool off for 10 minutes. People have said they use them for events without problems, but they don't use them for rapid multiple shots.

That's all I know.

[Timskis6]

Hey Dave - yes, I conversed with Lawrence last week in that thread, which is really what got the ball rolling on something I've been wanting to do more and more.

My primary use (I think) would be for outdoor work (since I'm such an outdoor person). I'm therefore thinking that AB's won't be ideal, since they'll require either AC power or a pretty large (and heavy) battery.

I'm thinking I'll start out with just a few small flashes - strobist style, if you will. I think I can get the effects with 2-3 flashes without any problems, using umbrellas as well.

This is all really just for fun (for now), so any experience or input from you or anyone else is highly encouraged. I'm pretty confident with my on-camera flash abilities for portraits, but I really want to start experimenting with off-camera strobes for more dramatic lighting. The FL-50R has been sufficing for the past year, but it has it's limitations - largely in price and functionality.

Originally Posted by whaleshark

Hi Tim,

lkinney posted this last week on "Radio Triggered Camera & Flash". It's still on page one of this forum.
http://forum.fourthirdsphoto.com/showthread.php?t=58757

A lot of studio and portrait photographers prefer the Alien Bee brand of strobe lighting. I don't know much about them but if you find Marc on dpreview OTF he can tell you about his. With a PC sync chord it may be better and easier to use.

One big limitation of the Oly FL-50 is the recycle times after multiple flashes. That is, if you trigger it about 10 times in rapid succession, you're suposed to let them cool off for 10 minutes. People have said they use them for events without problems, but they don't use them for rapid multiple shots.

That's all I know.

[whaleshark]

Tim,

I have another idea. Wein hot shoe slave triggers. I used two off-camera flashes recently to shoot a group shot of 20 people for Pasadena Heritage. I used two of the Wein hot shoe slave triggers with the FL-50 and an FL-40 set up on tripods. I used the on-camera flash to trigger the Wein triggers from about 15 or 20 feet away. The flash units are just out of the view about 8 to 10 feet from the closest person. I used bounce cards on both flashes to soften the light. I set the flashes at about 45 degrees to the porch landing that I had them sit on for the shot. I turned the flash heads around to face forward, leaving the front of the strobes and the clear side of the slave switch facing the camera. This shot was taken on the east, dark side of a 2-story historic house and it was nearly sunset, so the light was poor. I wanted the recesses of the Madison House porch lit up too.

For $35 apiece, these are cheaper than the FL-50R and I already had the FL-40 and FL-50.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...u=62712&is=REG

But why not just use the FL-50R flash units? If you own one already, it's easier to buy another one and use the Olympus system.

BTW, I recently aquired the Olympus FL-1 flash bracket handle with 4 C-cell battery boost. I really like how it functions as a grip and a much better mount for that fragile FL-50 flash base. I used it for the Colorado Street Bridge Party event and it worked great. I shot about 250 photos and never ran low on batteries. The FL-1 is discontinued but you can find them new and used on eBay. It also requires two Olympus cables, one of which is not available anywhere except China. I made the cable shutter release, which has two 5-connector male ends, from two remote cable release switches.

[Timskis6]

I don't have experience with the slave triggers, but from what I've read from others, the biggest drawback is reliability (again, I don't have any proof of this, just what I've read). I'm guessing it's an optical slave trigger based on the image, which means you'd have to be careful with direct sun lighting, and the flashes would have to be line-of-sight (if I'm not mistaken).

For the FL-50R, it doesn't have to be line-of-sight per-se, but it has to be darn close, or at least have something to bounce the on-camera flash to hit the FL-50R (such as a wall, etc.).

I guess the main problem I've had in the past with the FL-50R is reliability in bright sunlight (as well). Working distance isn't that great, either. For example, on a recent maternity shoot I did for a friend, I had her positioned on the grass on a bright sunny day with the FL-50R propped about 5 feet from her (because of FP-TTL power range). I was then maybe 20-25 feet in front and to the side of her, snapping away. The FL-50R only fired maybe half of those occasions, either due to the bright mid-sunny day or partial line-of-sight interference from the grass and body, or perhaps both.

The following day I tried something similar at the beach, where I shot at 100mm f/2.8 on the 35-100, with the model maybe 40 feet away, and another friend hand-holding the FL-50R about 6 feet away from the subject. I got 0% fire rate on the Fl-50R - I think it's just too bright for the tiny on-board flash to control the FL-50R in these conditions.

Have you used the optical slaves in any harsh-lighting conditions? I feel if I'm going to buy something I should do it the right way the first time around, instead of finding these problems along down the road.

Example of situation #2:

Originally Posted by whaleshark

Tim,

I have another idea. Wein hot shoe slave triggers. I used two off-camera flashes recently to shoot a group shot of 20 people for Pasadena Heritage. I used two of the Wein hot shoe slave triggers with the FL-50 and an FL-40 set up on tripods. I used the on-camera flash to trigger the Wein triggers from about 15 or 20 feet away. The flash units are just out of the view about 8 to 10 feet from the closest person. I used bounce cards on both flashes to soften the light. I set the flashes at about 45 degrees to the porch landing that I had them sit on for the shot. I turned the flash heads around to face forward, leaving the front of the strobes and the clear side of the slave switch facing the camera. This shot was taken on the east, dark side of a 2-story historic house and it was nearly sunset, so the light was poor. I wanted the recesses of the Madison House porch lit up too.

For $35 apiece, these are cheaper than the FL-50R and I already had the FL-40 and FL-50.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...u=62712&is=REG

But why not just use the FL-50R flash units? If you own one already, it's easier to buy another one and use the Olympus system.

BTW, I recently aquired the Olympus FL-1 flash bracket handle with 4 C-cell battery boost. I really like how it functions as a grip and a much better mount for that fragile FL-50 flash base. I used it for the Colorado Street Bridge Party event and it worked great. I shot about 250 photos and never ran low on batteries. The FL-1 is discontinued but you can find them new and used on eBay. It also requires two Olympus cables, one of which is not available anywhere except China. I made the cable shutter release, which has two 5-connector male ends, from two remote cable release switches.

[whaleshark]

Tim,

Maybe you should just give me a call because no one else is responding to this question. Really, there are lots of people with more flash experience than me.

I haven't used the Wein slave triggers in bright sunlight or long distances. But from your descriptions I'd say you were beyond the limit of the on-board flash. I think it has a guide number of 13 (range of 13 m per dpreview). In bright sunlight it's just not going to illuminate anything beyond 10 or 15 feet and may not be enough light to fire the slave triggers or FL-50R radio frequency. There's a small difference between light and radio waves, but I always thought the 50R was fired by a radio frequency and that's why it's not triggered by other people's flash.

The Wein will be triggered by any flash within it's range and for that reason are not a good choice when shooting weddings where other people are snapping photos. The Wein slave trigger clear sensor could be shaded with aluminum foil so the sensor faced only the camera and not the sun and other flash units. Sort of a light funnel facing the on-board flash. That might make them work better in bright sunlight.

You may want to try a bigger flash on your hot shoe. Maybe use an FL-20 or an FL-36. Does the FL-50R respond to another flash? This would work well on the Wein slave triggers.

The sensor may be on the front of the FL-50R flash unit. I turned the heads around 180 degrees on my FL-50 and FL-40 so the Wein units faced the camera while the strobe head faced the subject. There's no focus assist light this way though.

Another reason the FL-50R flash didn't fire more than half the time may be that it wasn't recycling fast enough. Either you shot faster than it could recycle or the batteries were low and it recycled very slowly. Is that possible?

Another solution for your example shot would have been a reflector board. For a lot less money and no power supply needed, it would have given you lots of reflected sunlight.

For an extreme view on outdoor flash look on this site. Scroll past the first two articles for an article called "Let There Be Light" about high intensity flash outdoors. What he says about creating images with light is good info. The set-up is way beyond what you're looking for though.

http://robertbenson.com/blog/

I hope a few morte people will offer ideas here.

Originally Posted by Timskis6

I don't have experience with the slave triggers, but from what I've read from others, the biggest drawback is reliability (again, I don't have any proof of this, just what I've read). I'm guessing it's an optical slave trigger based on the image, which means you'd have to be careful with direct sun lighting, and the flashes would have to be line-of-sight (if I'm not mistaken).

For the FL-50R, it doesn't have to be line-of-sight per-se, but it has to be darn close, or at least have something to bounce the on-camera flash to hit the FL-50R (such as a wall, etc.).

I guess the main problem I've had in the past with the FL-50R is reliability in bright sunlight (as well). Working distance isn't that great, either. For example, on a recent maternity shoot I did for a friend, I had her positioned on the grass on a bright sunny day with the FL-50R propped about 5 feet from her (because of FP-TTL power range). I was then maybe 20-25 feet in front and to the side of her, snapping away. The FL-50R only fired maybe half of those occasions, either due to the bright mid-sunny day or partial line-of-sight interference from the grass and body, or perhaps both.

The following day I tried something similar at the beach, where I shot at 100mm f/2.8 on the 35-100, with the model maybe 40 feet away, and another friend hand-holding the FL-50R about 6 feet away from the subject. I got 0% fire rate on the Fl-50R - I think it's just too bright for the tiny on-board flash to control the FL-50R in these conditions.

Have you used the optical slaves in any harsh-lighting conditions? I feel if I'm going to buy something I should do it the right way the first time around, instead of finding these problems along down the road.

[Hudsonhites]

Here's an overview of some of the radio triggers on the market

http://strobist.blogspot.com/2010/07...nded-list.html

[Timskis6]

Thanks Dave and Hudsonhites for the replies. I mulled over this for a while, and finally just decided to purchase two Plus II PW transceivers. This will get me started with a single off-camera flash with good remote capability.

I'm still debating whether I want to go with another Vivitar 285HV and a Wein slave strobe, or bypass the additions, spend a little more, and get a Lumopro LP160 slave flash (built in optical slave, reportedly very good).

Either way it'll give me the option of using the FL-50R off-camera with excellent reliability, either using the PW's or using the built-in wireless capabilities of the E-system (including TTL). But the point here is to expand my knowledge in flash photography to the point where I can use a completely manual setup - that's where I want to be, which precludes TTL. It will also give me a lot more control over lighting.

I went ahead and purchased two relatively cheap umbrella setups from ebay, at least something to get me in the door - shoot through white and reflective silver, with accompanying light stands, etc.

Hopefully I can still manage to bring in the subjects!

[KellysCayman]

I know you have made up your mind already but if you have not purchased read on as it will save you money.

1. PW are great but expensive. Check out the Radio Popper JrX system. http://shop.radiopopper.com/radiopop...iokitusca.aspx I have 2 transmitters and 3 (soon 4) receivers and they work like a dream.

2. In order to use the FL50r with the Radio Popper JrX you will have to picked up a cable from Flash Zebra. http://www.flashzebra.com/products/0220/index.shtml The Canon one works great with Oly Flashes.

3. Check out the thread on High Speed Sync shooting in Manual with the E3 and FL50r flashes. http://forum.fourthirdsphoto.com/showthread.php?t=56977
I have been able to make this work over and over again using my Radio Poppers and I have been able to take it even further by getting even a flash on camera to work with my off camera flashes triggered with a Radio Popper JrX

The LumoPro flash looks like a bargain for the price but I have no idea how it would work with the Oly system. I would expect any flash to work in manual off camera, might be the way to go. http://www.mpex.com/browse.cfm/4,14648.html

I hope that helps.

Kelly

[lkeeney]

I use my Alien Bees lights for outdoor shoots all the time. You are right in saying the battery and inverter are a little heavy. The Vagabond II weights a little over 18 pounds.

I think I may have posted the below image here before, but it shows how I transport all my photographic equipment, and how it works as a light stand as well. That is a boom arm that I have in the corner of the cart. All of this folds up and fits easily in the trunk of my car.

What you see is only the Vagabond II in the cart, but I normally carry my Vagabond 150 as well as a backup supply. I then have my camera bag, etc. loaded into the cart. This makes a very stable lighting platform which I have used in some very heavy winds without any problems.

Having pushed for Alien Bees lights for outdoor shoots, next week I have a shoot scheduled with a family in State park called Red Rock Canyon. I intend to use one of my FL-50 units off-camera. I may even add a second FL-50 just to see the effect I get with a second light.

Just as an aside, I use Alien Bees CyberSync transmitters and receivers and really like them.

[deancon]

If you want a clean arrangement and like using your FL-50Rs, consider adding a sync port directly to the unit after the fact, so that you can connect to a PW or other radio trigger for off-camera speed lights, without the need for another (potentially unreliable) hot shoe.

I just had it done by:

ducminhpham.hnams@gmail.com

who is on here, and will do this for you for $35 each plus shipping.

I have had reliability issues using optical units in my usual 4-light location portrait setup where I use a speedlight-based softbox as a main which encloses the unit and covers the optical receiver on my FL-50R and makes that approach less reliable.

I don't like using the hotshoe add-ons because if corded, they can weaken after some use (invariably) and lose reliability. It also involves putting another device between the stand mount and the foot, which also can compromise the strength of the arrangement and put your flash at risk. I have to do this for my Metz 48 AF-1 however, as no one I know can add a sync socket after the fact.

It would have been nice had Olympus provided one, as is found on the Nikon and Canon equivalents...but, such is life.

Minh is a good guy and knows what he is doing.

Bob

[deancon]

If you are considering umbrellas, look also at the Westcott Apollo, which produces a much more pleasing light. It breaks down to about the same size as an umbrella but sets up like a softbox.

I've compared it side-by-side to using reflective umbrellas, and the quality of the light when shooting people is much less harsh!

Bob

[Timskis6]

Hi Kelly - I appreciate your response and I value it highly considering the work you've done with flash photography.

As I posted this a while back, I really dove into the research and found a lot of complaints from all brands of radio triggers, saying none were 100% reliable. I realize I can't expect 100% reliability with anything electronic, but I really do get frustrated when on a shoot and my FL-50R flashes aren't firing - it's embarrassing and annoying.

From the research I did, it seemed like the least worrisome units were the PW's, despite their 10-fold price difference to many other makes and models. I decided to go ahead and buy two used units to get the ball rolling - maybe I would like them and maybe I wouldn't, but they came at an acceptable price so I went for them. Time will tell whether or not they're up to my standards.

Regarding the Lumopro, I really went back and forth debating between that flash and the Vivitar 285HV, the latter about half the price, but both pretty darn inexpensive with good specs and good reviews. I opted for the Lumopro in the end since it had a built-in slave unit, which I'd have to add to the Vivitar anyway. Less gizmos makes my life easier. I think. I should also be able to use it in slave mode without the PW's using the E-systems wireless capabilities by triggering an FL-50R which will trigger the Lumopro slave. Apparently the Lumopro can differentiate between the TTL pre-flash and the exposure flash, which might work for the pop-up trigger flash on the E-3 as well. We'll see, no biggie if it doesn't work, that's why I've got the PW's.

I read through the high speed synch thread a while back and was very impressed - I think I participated on the same discussion on DPR a while back too.

Thanks for the info.

Originally Posted by KellysCayman

I know you have made up your mind already but if you have not purchased read on as it will save you money.

1. PW are great but expensive. Check out the Radio Popper JrX system. http://shop.radiopopper.com/radiopop...iokitusca.aspx I have 2 transmitters and 3 (soon 4) receivers and they work like a dream.

2. In order to use the FL50r with the Radio Popper JrX you will have to picked up a cable from Flash Zebra. http://www.flashzebra.com/products/0220/index.shtml The Canon one works great with Oly Flashes.

3. Check out the thread on High Speed Sync shooting in Manual with the E3 and FL50r flashes. http://forum.fourthirdsphoto.com/showthread.php?t=56977
I have been able to make this work over and over again using my Radio Poppers and I have been able to take it even further by getting even a flash on camera to work with my off camera flashes triggered with a Radio Popper JrX

The LumoPro flash looks like a bargain for the price but I have no idea how it would work with the Oly system. I would expect any flash to work in manual off camera, might be the way to go. http://www.mpex.com/browse.cfm/4,14648.html

I hope that helps.

Kelly

[Timskis6]

I really looked into the high powered stuff based on your previous posts and our previous discussions, but to get me started I decided to just go light. For now. If I start getting into this more and continue getting paid for my work, well, then I can consider the "big guns."

Originally Posted by lkeeney

I use my Alien Bees lights for outdoor shoots all the time. You are right in saying the battery and inverter are a little heavy. The Vagabond II weights a little over 18 pounds.

I think I may have posted the below image here before, but it shows how I transport all my photographic equipment, and how it works as a light stand as well. That is a boom arm that I have in the corner of the cart. All of this folds up and fits easily in the trunk of my car.

What you see is only the Vagabond II in the cart, but I normally carry my Vagabond 150 as well as a backup supply. I then have my camera bag, etc. loaded into the cart. This makes a very stable lighting platform which I have used in some very heavy winds without any problems.

Having pushed for Alien Bees lights for outdoor shoots, next week I have a shoot scheduled with a family in State park called Red Rock Canyon. I intend to use one of my FL-50 units off-camera. I may even add a second FL-50 just to see the effect I get with a second light.

Just as an aside, I use Alien Bees CyberSync transmitters and receivers and really like them.

[Timskis6]

Thanks for the email, I was already planning on having my FL-50R modded by him! It really was strange to me that the E-system flashes didn't have an external synch port, I can understand the want/need to streamline using their "wireless" interface, but just facing the facts, it doesn't work as well in practice as we all hoped.

How would you compare the Westcott Apollo to a shoot-through umbrella? Similar light or still better?

Originally Posted by deancon

If you are considering umbrellas, look also at the Westcott Apollo, which produces a much more pleasing light. It breaks down to about the same size as an umbrella but sets up like a softbox.

I've compared it side-by-side to using reflective umbrellas, and the quality of the light when shooting people is much less harsh!

Bob

[KellysCayman]

Let us know how it goes with the Lumopro Flash, I have 4 FL50r flashes and I think thats enough until the next version comes out!

If I need more power or a flash I can take on a adventure race where it might get trashed I just might pick up a couple.

Great score on the PW units, the old manual jobs are great, its the new TTL units that are trash. I have been shooting with the Radio Poppers since the new year and I just love them. All of the problems I had with my Flash Wave units in venues where they would trip on their own were gone with the switch! The only time I have had problems with miss fires is when the battery gets lower. But I just saw the recommendation on Strobist for the rechargeable CR123A batteries, I need to order some as I would much rather recharge before each shoot or right after than deal with trying to get the most out of disposables. Plus I hate paying for 1 time use batteries.

One issue I have had shooting with Hotshoe flashes is how they attach to the stand. I hated attaching the flashes via the hotshoe, its the weakest point and if a basketball hits the stand chances are the flash will hit the floor! I tried to make something but since I have limited time and equipment I plan to buy the brackets from Michael Bass. http://michaelbass.blogspot.com/2007...#FlashMtHoriz9

If you scroll down they have a double bracket as well. Here is a quick review and demo as to why the light is even better when using the Michael Bass bracket. http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/mul...50-10614-10628

I also have the Westcott Apollo 28x28 and like Bob, love it, I just need to find a bag to fit it. I have not used it enough but off the top of my head, you have better control of your light and more consistent light over the whole softbox since the flash bounced off the reflected back of the box. Helps cut down on the hot spot issues.

The high speed sync trick works, I setup 2 FL50r flashes on a stand when shooting an adventure race in June. I was about 20feet away and once I got my flash to subject distance right it worked really well on a bright summer day!!! Check out the slideshow at the link below. I have a handful of shots when they are on bikes starting around the 45sec mark... http://video214.com/play/BQm1buqqhdffQ92bbbu0MQ/s/dark.

Have Fun with your new setup!

[deancon]

Originally Posted by Timskis6

How would you compare the Westcott Apollo to a shoot-through umbrella? Similar light or still better?

The Apollow is more efficient than shoot-thrus, since you have the reflective back of the softbox. The quality of light between the Apollo and a good shoot-through are probably similar, I haven't tried a side-by-side that actually, I've compared only to reflectives.

The disadvantage is that the flash is completely enclosed, making setup and adjustments a bit more time comsuming. which I did get used to. You can't use an optical trigger on that unit as dependably and your radio trigger needs to be very solid.

It folds down to the size of a 42" umbrella, and is reasonably well-built.