Camera Topics E-3 focusing - Request for Olympus response

[aml]

I have been following the E-3 focusing issues with some interest given my experience with out of focus birds.

There have been a few discussions here as well as on the other forum.

I wonder if there is any way for Olympus engineering to help us out here with some deeper technical information on the focusing system, a set of best practices and a list known implementation features (commonly called bugs).

IMHO, based upon my reading on the forums, after noise, helping the E-3 community to improve our focusing experience could raise the satisfaction index with this wonderful camera.

Perhaps those that have influence with Olympus could state the case for intervention.

Even something as simple as an officially blessed DIY focusing test would go a long way to help users feel comfortable with their system and help reduce user error.

Our community may be small, but it is loyal and somewhat vocal

Tony, Boots?

Dave

[heavy wind lover]

that would be nice of them to chime in here every now and then to assist improved camera operation and understanding,,

not holding my breath though,,

Derry

[tspore]

I have talked at length with a few people at Olympus about the issues that some people are having. But They and I have problems identifying the issues.
Here is my 2 issues - #1 I haven't had any problems with either body I have used outside of the very rare picture which appears in focus and than all of a sudden goes out of focus. And really I haven't seen that lately. #2 I have met with 3 users one on one who were having issues and they turned out to be user issues. (I even met with a well know magazine write who was having problems, and they turned out to be him, not the camera)
So while I think that a few have problems I can't replicate it, nor can the unnamed contacts. I have to believe that world wide a few of the cameras are bad, it simply makes since, but that has to be taken into account with the E-3 is a very different beast than any other camera I have ever used. It has a large learning curve. (Probably to large)
I basically devoted the first webazine to it - Here are 2 articles which may help from it-

http://www.fourthirdsphoto.com/magazine/0101_focus.pdf
http://fourthirdsphoto.com/magazine/0101_e3.pdf
(these are taken for issue 1 located here - http://www.fourthirdsphoto.com/magazine.php )

Second the web review mentioned some solutions as a starting point -
http://fourthirdsphoto.com/special/E...E3review09.php

If you honestly think that you are having issues than send the body in to be serviced. I personally have a harder time with C-AF than with S-AF. But when I turn the release priority "off" in C-AF it may slow me down to 3 fps, but at least they are in focus.

[aml]

Tony, I think we are in agreement.

I do think that some more information is needed.

For example, John Wrotniak in his guide to setting up the E-3 stats to keep the AF sensitivity area to "Normal" but many seem to be suggesting "small" is delivering better results. I think there is not sufficient data for us to understand what that means.

Another example is the use of the setting "AF Point Selection Setup" where some have suggested better results are achieved using "spiral" when a single point is selected. Again, not enough data is published to understand how the software "thinks" when these combinations are used.

Finally, my suggestion for publishing an official test pattern that can be "DIY" at home might alleviate many of the issues. I have to believe that Olympus has one of these that could be published through this community. This would likely help many of us understand if we are having a problem or the camera is. I used the one published on one of the Nikon forums and found that my 14-150 is just fine. Taking this approach would probably reduce the number of E-3's that are showing up at Olympus' doorstep.

To summarize, I think that a document from Olympus explaining the "how it works" not just the "what you should set" would provide the user base with the knowledge that it needs. It would also demonstrate the commitment that Olympus continues to provide to the community.

[travelfotografer]

Originally Posted by aml

Another example is the use of the setting "AF Point Selection Setup" where some have suggested better results are achieved using "spiral" when a single point is selected. Again, not enough data is published to understand how the software "thinks" when these combinations are used.

My understanding about this setting is that it changes how the *user* can *manually* select the AF point, and *not* how the E-3 "thinks" and selects the AF point.

[Bill_Turner]

Dave,
Your post has been read and Tony's assessment, above, is correct.

[E B]

I concur.

[davidh202]

Originally Posted by aml

Another example is the use of the setting "AF Point Selection Setup" where some have suggested better results are achieved using "spiral" when a single point is selected. Again, not enough data is published to understand how the software "thinks" when these combinations are used.

As Leon also said,
Spiral and loop selection of the single af point is strictly how the selection dials set up to allow personal preferance as to how the point will move around the 11 point pattern, it has nothing to do with sensativity of focus.

My only gripe with Oly is there has still been no really good explaination of how the "all points" setting should behave.
David

[davidh202]

Originally Posted by tspore

#2 I have met with 3 users one on one who were having issues and they turned out to be user issues. (I even met with a well know magazine write who was having problems, and they turned out to be him, not the camera)

Tony you've mentioned this now a couple of times.Can you give us an example of what these people were doing wrong as to focus issues.
Maybe this will 'click' with someone else who is having problems.
David

[heavy wind lover]

Tony, how about the C-AF that has had numerous discussions with no resolve on it ever working proper,,

please join in on how or what setting allows it to work correctly or are our E3 expectations above what Oly provded,,???

Derry

[Johnmcl7]

I very much wish that settings or changing my shooting technique would resolve E-3 errors but I no longer believe it's the case. The problem seems to be the E-3 can confirm focus when nothing is actually in focus. I have taken three shots in a row simply lifting off the shutter release and pressing it again with no changes in settings or the frame yet for some reason the middle shot is out of focus (focussed just ahead of the scene) and the first and third are in focus. Trees and dogs seem to be the most likely to trigger this behaviour although it's very inconsistent, I can normally see when the 7-14mm misses focus as it does it by a long way - releasing and pressing the shutter on exactly the same scene will often get the picture.

I can live with the camera not being able to get focus or catching a different portion of the subject because I can work with that but this confirming focus when it's a bit out (making it hard to notice in the viewfinder) is frustrating. I had hoped to find a contact in Olympus that could assist and perhaps narrow down the problem but I've had no luck, currently I don't see much point in sending the camera body away again.

John

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

I don't own an E3 & I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night, but, if there is this much confusion / trouble with focusing issues that are user related, that tells me the owners manual is written poorly. The manual for my 510 is very poorly written for sure, and even more, has been lost in the translation to English. There isn't much produced anymore that comes with a good operators manual. There needs to be a technical reference somewhere that explains the operation of these cameras so you can decide what is the best way to use the various settings. Something that says" when you set this, this is what the camera will try and do, or some such.
This and lack of marketing is Oly's biggest weakness IMO
Just my humble opinion

Jim

[wayne]

Having used my E-3 for several months, i have found that most focusing issues are due to a lack of understanding of the rather complex focusing system employed by Olympus.

First, the manual does not really explain all the concepts (I and do not claim to know them all either). Second, so very basic items, like the small vs normal focus area are not explained in the manual (and certainly the manual does not say which is better and what to watch out for).

On the second issue, the small focusing area is just what you need to capture that bird behind the branches. But, it can be difficult to get focus lock on mnay subjects as the area is smaller, which could thus contain the same shade (no contrast) which would cause the lens to hunt. With that said, 90% of the time, I use the small area as I tend to shoot a lot of wildlife.

The various focus modes are better explained, but there is not enough verbage on which to use when. I prefer single rather than continuous, and like the manual focus option to help tweak the focus on moving objects. The focus point selection is not important to me as I am used to 35mm MF SLR's and range finders (I focus on the subject centered, then compose - old habits are hard to break).

Yes, you can get the E3 and SWD lenses to hunt. This often happens when the subject lacks contrast (more so than low light). But, the E3 is no worse than other DSLR's in this regard either.

Does the lens matter? Yes, the newer SWD lenses focus faster and seem to hunt less (12-60 vs 14-54 and 50-200 original vs SWD model). Also, the E3 does get focus lock faster than the E1, and can actually track moving subjects well.

Wayne

[Knight Palm]

Originally Posted by heavy wind lover

that would be nice of them to chime in here every now and then to assist improved camera operation and understanding,,

not holding my breath though,,

Derry

I don't think so.

I wouldn't like to steal the vendors support engineers time by messing around in various fora on internet. Rather, I like to see an efficient and differentiated support program, where if you pay more, you get more.

In Europe, you have three levels already, see http://www.olympus-europa.com/consumer/dslr_7623.htm

Even in the lowest level, E-Club, you'll get an additional 6-month warranty extension.

In addition, you have the E-Professional and E-Master. With paying more, you get more.

Your benefits as an Olympus E-Master member at a glance:
Highest priority repair service worldwide
Free loan equipment during repair period if needed
Free system check once a year
Priority treatment via exclusive, telephone support number
(free of charge in major European countries)
Membership magazine
e-Newsletter (local translation)
Invitations to special events
Access to the Pro Area of the website
Access to view and upload work to the Image Gallery
Placement of business card on the internet site
Product registration

I find it hard to understand, why we don't hear more about recommendations to use these available services.

Even if you don't have these premium support alternatives, you still have a two years warranty period in Europe, which works well according to my experiences.

[Forge]

Whoa!

All that was asked (and it is hardly the first time) was that Olympus would provide some guidance on the operation of the different AF settings.

For instance, I haven't yet heard anyone able to explain how 11 point AF is supposed to function; from what I understand most people just don't use it. That alone justifies somebody inside the organization who does know taking a little bit of time (half a day at most?) to write something up explaining what situations the setting is useful for and how best to use it in those situations.

The idea that people should have to pay additional costs to find out how basic features of the camera work is ridiculous. This is basic information that is not available in written form anywhere, and it should be.

Originally Posted by Knight Palm

I don't think so.

I wouldn't like to steal the vendors support engineers time by messing around in various fora on internet. Rather, I like to see an efficient and differentiated support program, where if you pay more, you get more.

In Europe, you have three levels already, see http://www.olympus-europa.com/consumer/dslr_7623.htm

Even in the lowest level, E-Club, you'll get an additional 6-month warranty extension.

In addition, you have the E-Professional and E-Master. With paying more, you get more.


I find it hard to understand, why we don't hear more about recommendations to use these available services.

Even if you don't have these premium support alternatives, you still have a two years warranty period in Europe, which works well according to my experiences.

[Knight Palm]

I couldn't agree more that information about the E-3's AF is lacking, since we have this bunch of questions.

We would need a person writing a really good and a practical user's guide. Or have a DVD sent with the purchase of the camera covering also the intricate topics.

There are already a couple of white paper oriented articles on:
Story of Four Thirds System
Olympus Passion for Best (creation of the E-3).

Another place to look for resources are:
Olympus Digital School
Unfortunately, the number of dedicated lessions with E-3 are quite basic and few. This is an excellent area where additional information could be communicated in a pedagogic way. But I think these lessons are produced by a third-party, with a local budget from Olympus America.

Therefore, the owner of such a task, to issue white papers with detailed technical focus, should be with the Olympus product marketing in Japan.

Currently, Olympus obviously has failed in documenting and sharing the intricate details of the AF system in the E-3 to the users. This is a bit worrying, since expect the upcoming E-30 to also share the same AF module and this product is expected to sell in larger quantaties than the E-3. So more confused users over the mysterious AF system is to be expected.

Until we see either practical online photo lessons or a detailed white paper from Olympus on using the 11-point AF system, the best recommendation is to share best practises on dedicated fora, such as:
http://fourthirds-user.com/forum/
http://forum.fourthirdsphoto.com/
But I don't want or expect Olympus support people to contribute online in those fora, for reasons already mentioned. Rather, we as one thousand users here call the local support sites and request further information about the AF system. With the support swamped with questions about AF, they ought to take these questions seriously and act centrally.

I also find it useful to read i.e. bird photograhers share their camera AF settings, like here in this thread:
http://forum.fourthirdsphoto.com/sho...937#post331937

[Derek Wright]

The free loan period available to E-Master members (after paying up) is to compensate for the very long time it takes to get Oly cameras repaired in Europe especially in the UK.

There is a multi stage transportation process, first from Dealer or owner to Oly UK HQ in Watford, then a wait (sometimes for days) for the camera to be entered in the system.
Then it is shipped to Portugal and eventually it is repaired - if they have the spare parts available.
A one month turnaround time is not unusual.
Compare this with the turnaround times reported in the US at the two repair centres.

Is it surprising they had to offer something better than this for people who make a living from their cameras.

[Forge]

That I largely agree with. I think it is worth there time to frequent these fora (both those you mentioned as well as the on darkside) simply because there are a number of (advanced, technically aware) users who will post problems in these places first, even before approaching 'customer support'. By the simple act of watching these places they can catch early warning that either a) there are actual problems or b) there are under-explained complexities.

What I do agree with you is that these aren't necessarily the place to respond to those questions. I would expect them to issue a 'white paper' or similar on one of the official sites or give an relevant interview with someone like Tony.

From a marketing perspective though, it may be advantageous at times, especially with issues like what some people are having with the 14-35 to be seen to be on top of the problem in the forums. Currently it seems that some Olympus contacts aren't aware of the issue, others believe it is a problem with specific units and someone with the ability to collate, contact and respond to those issues would be valuable.

[Johnmcl7]

Originally Posted by Jim Flinchbaugh

I don't own an E3 & I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night, but, if there is this much confusion / trouble with focusing issues that are user related, that tells me the owners manual is written poorly. The manual for my 510 is very poorly written for sure, and even more, has been lost in the translation to English. There isn't much produced anymore that comes with a good operators manual. There needs to be a technical reference somewhere that explains the operation of these cameras so you can decide what is the best way to use the various settings. Something that says" when you set this, this is what the camera will try and do, or some such.
This and lack of marketing is Oly's biggest weakness IMO
Just my humble opinion

Jim

I've tried pretty much all E-3 AF settings and various other different functions but I've not been able to stop it confirming focus when it shouldn't be. I've also spent a lot of time on this forum troubleshooting the problem and no-one has been able to suggest a working solution either.

John

[Knight Palm]

Originally Posted by Johnmcl7

I've tried pretty much all E-3 AF settings and various other different functions but I've not been able to stop it confirming focus when it shouldn't be. I've also spent a lot of time on this forum troubleshooting the problem and no-one has been able to suggest a working solution either.


John

1. I would recommend you to first perform a hard reset of the camera.
2. Then write down a high quality and detailed problem assessment report, in order to qualify if there is a repetitive camera problem or not. (You might share it here also, since it can be educational to others).
3. If there is a camera problem, send in the camera together with the problem assessment to the nearest Olympus support center. If you're on a premier support plan, you may be treated well with a loaner camera.

Good luck!

[E B]

Well, I'm sorry but I think your options are limited. You'll not get much help here since your camera is apparently malfunctioning and there isn't any constructive suggestion the other forum users can make to you to stop that from happening. You've talked to Olympus twice and they think you should send the camera to the service center. I know you did that once without getting a satisfactory resolution and your camera dealer mishandled the transaction to boot, sending the camera back to you rather than to the service center. So, you're having a bad experience with a poorly functioning camera. Unfortunatly, the only way you're going to resolve the issue is to write up an explanation of the problem and send the camera off to the service center and deal with them until the issue is finally resolved. I know that isn't what you want to hear, but I don't see the situation changing for you until you do that.

[E B]

Originally Posted by wayne

Having used my E-3 for several months, i have found that most focusing issues are due to a lack of understanding of the rather complex focusing system employed by Olympus.

I'll agree to that in principle, but let's also agree that there are bound to be some percentage of camera hardware failures as well.

First, the manual does not really explain all the concepts (I and do not claim to know them all either). Second, so very basic items, like the small vs normal focus area are not explained in the manual (and certainly the manual does not say which is better and what to watch out for).

I haven't found any camera manual that really explains the basic concepts that you're looking for. Take the D300 manual for instance; it is 448 pages long, three times longer than the E-3 manual and it doesn't explain any of the basic concepts that you're looking for either.

[Johnmcl7]

Originally Posted by Knight Palm

1. I would recommend you to first perform a hard reset of the camera.
2. Then write down a high quality and detailed problem assessment report, in order to qualify if there is a repetitive camera problem or not. (You might share it here also, since it can be educational to others).
3. If there is a camera problem, send in the camera together with the problem assessment to the nearest Olympus support center. If you're on a premier support plan, you may be treated well with a loaner camera.

Good luck!

All three done already, camera is still the same.

John

[davidh202]

Originally Posted by Forge

Whoa!

All that was asked (and it is hardly the first time) was that Olympus would provide some guidance on the operation of the different AF settings.

For instance, I haven't yet heard anyone able to explain how 11 point AF is supposed to function; from what I understand most people just don't use it. That alone justifies somebody inside the organization who does know taking a little bit of time (half a day at most?) to write something up explaining what situations the setting is useful for and how best to use it in those situations.

I have brought up the subject of a better explaination of the AF especially ALL POINTS (just the other day
http://forum.fourthirdsphoto.com/showthread.php?t=40173 ) and a number of times since the E-3 was released.I have E-mailed Oly twice since the release requesting better info and after two months got a response from one of their article writers from the "school" (I can't remember his name now) but essentially was blown off as it would be too much trouble for them to explain every topic in the manual
It seems counter productive to me since I'd be willing to bet if they did explain the AF functions better many of the so called problems (maybe not all) would vanish into the sunset!
David

[Knight Palm]

Originally Posted by Johnmcl7

All three done already, camera is still the same.

John

Then, if you have a waterproof problem assessment report to support your claim of a faulty camera, do it again.

That's the best advice I can give, and what I should do myself in a similar case.