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View Full Version : Flash / Strobe Topics FL-50R Firing?



4/3_Pickles
04-04-2008, 07:11 AM
I noticed the little picture in the manual and read the accompanying text along with it that shows/states that to use th FL-50R OFF the hot-shoe you have to raise the pop-up flash.

Does it have to be the pop-up flash? Can another flash unit in the hot-shoe work? The FL-50R must be either smart or really smart to work. If the unit just needs some light burst to trigger, than any flash should work. If it is really smart, it is "looking" for some fancy coded bursts that maybe a hot-shoe mounted flash wouldn't provide because the pulsed coded smarts aren't wired thru the hot-shoe?

So the simple question is, if you have a FL-50R, can it work without being connected to the camera and be triggered by another FL-50R, or an FL-50, or a Sunpak 383, or a Metz, or something else?

Johannes
04-04-2008, 07:25 AM
Any flash can trigger the FL-50R at slave mode. :smile:

jondextan
04-04-2008, 07:39 AM
same with the FL-36R :)

lendur2
04-04-2008, 07:54 AM
Any flash can trigger the FL-50R at slave mode. :smile:

So the triggering medium isn't radio waves but light? That's no good because then you can't place a fill-flash behind the subject.

What about using a synch cord? Are there sockets in the body and flash for this purpose? Will any standard-tipped cord work?

jondextan
04-04-2008, 08:02 AM
you can get creative with reflectors to fire your fill-flash from behind.

yes on sync cords for pocket wizard on the 50R.

Johannes
04-04-2008, 08:03 AM
So the triggering medium isn't radio waves but light?
Yes.

That's no good because then you can't place a fill-flash behind the subject.
The sensor is rather sensitive and normally it works unless it placed behind a big tall solid wall.

What about using a synch cord?
Yes, with a third party hot shoe.

Are there sockets in the body and flash for this purpose?
No.

Will any standard-tipped cord work?
Yes, with third party hot shoe too.

E B
04-04-2008, 08:10 AM
Note that the remote flash intensity and type of flash sync can be set/changed remotely by the camera if you use the camera's builtin popup flash which sends coded remote flash instructions to the remote unit at the time of triggering the remote flash.

tspore
04-04-2008, 02:35 PM
also you cannot use another FL-50 on the camera to trip the remote flash in any other mode but slave mode. so for example, not Auto or TTL.
The TTL seems to be working very well with the fl-50r I must say I am impressed.
I have used them as back light, and fill light, with very good results.

4/3_Pickles
04-04-2008, 02:54 PM
The TTL seems to be working very well with the fl-50r I must say I am impressed.
I have used them as back light, and fill light, with very good results.

So you triggered them with the pop-up or built-in flash ?

Almost seems like pocket wizards or Micro-sync's are the way to go then, rather than the R flash units...?

Holy Ghosted
04-04-2008, 03:01 PM
I have found the limitations a lot sooner then I thought I would with the 50R as far as the distance and being placed of to the side or behind a object. I am glad I already had the Elinchrom skyports I just use a hotshoe to mini phone and it works great with the 50R.

4/3_Pickles
04-04-2008, 03:30 PM
I am glad I already had the Elinchrom skyports I just use a hotshoe to mini phone and it works great with the 50R.

What pieces "exactly" did you use, because the SkyPorts are on my list to check out and if I know all one would need, that would help a lot.

Holy Ghosted
04-04-2008, 07:43 PM
What pieces "exactly" did you use, because the SkyPorts are on my list to check out and if I know all one would need, that would help a lot.

This is the set that will fire one flash you can get extra receivers for around $100 to $105.00 they need to be the universal ones though
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/505381-REG/Elinchrom_EL_19360_EL_Skyport_Universal_Radio_Slav e.html

and this is the connector that is needed to fire the 50R it goes from the receiver to the flash but you can find it cheaper at other places such as flash zebra. I just made my own from a $8.00 hotshoe to pc and rewired it for the miniphone that I got from radio shack for like 2 bucks or less
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/421306-REG/Paramount_PMMHSF1_Miniphone_to_Female_Hot.html

Michael Meissner
04-04-2008, 08:12 PM
I have found the limitations a lot sooner then I thought I would with the 50R as far as the distance and being placed of to the side or behind a object. I am glad I already had the Elinchrom skyports I just use a hotshoe to mini phone and it works great with the 50R.
I'm curious what the limitations are in real practice. From theory, I can imagine only depending on them if the flashes have a clear line of sight to the commander (depending on bounce back from a wall will work a lot of time, but Murphy will guarantee it won't work when you need it to work, plus the usual problems of optical slaves in bright light). Of course, radio waves often times have their own problems with interference, particularly with the cheaper setups.
:dontknow:

Holy Ghosted
04-04-2008, 09:46 PM
The area that really bothered me is out side overcast day 30 feet give or take and I was trying to back light a bridge that the side is concert that says LINCOlN HIGHWAY I could see the top half of the flash but it still would not flash the only time I could get it to flash is if I could see the whole flash (neither of these would work for the shot I was hoping that it could get enough light through the Lincoln Highway to operate the 50R) also once I stood off to the side to see if I could get it to work that way it would not it would only work straight on. I was to far away for it to be off to the side. Like I said I wanted a little more out of the system I really do like how easy it is to use on camera and easy to set up I guess that is why I want it to work a little better so I do not have to go to the sky port quite so soon because for small rooms or portraits the 50R/E3 set up really does work very well. :smile:

tspore
04-05-2008, 12:20 AM
So you triggered them with the pop-up or built-in flash ?

Almost seems like pocket wizards or Micro-sync's are the way to go then, rather than the R flash units...?
You trigger the flashes with the pop up flash on the E-3 / E-420.
I have run pocket wizards for years. This is much better.
First TTL - 1000 times better than manual.
Second you control the flashes off the camera body.
Third you can control the flashes independantly.

IT is much quicker and better, than pocket wizards in 99% of cases.

If I am going to shoot a sports game, or a very far shot than of course pocket wizards are better.
But I don't shoot a ton of sports.

Really this system is very nice.

4/3_Pickles
04-05-2008, 12:14 PM
What I am having trouble understanding now is if you use an FL-50R, and trigger it with the pop-up flash, and it is using TTL, how does it know how much light the FL-50R will be placing on the subject?

If I am 15 feet from the subject, and the FL-50R is off at a 45 degree angle to one side, so it is also 15 feet form the subject, it throws off X-amount of light. If the flash is moved to 10 feet, is the subject now overexposed a bit?

E B
04-05-2008, 01:27 PM
What I am having trouble understanding now is if you use an FL-50R, and trigger it with the pop-up flash, and it is using TTL, how does it know how much light the FL-50R will be placing on the subject?


If you're worried about the amount of light that the pop-up flash puts out, don't. There is a minute time delay between when the pop-up flash illuminates and passes it's instructions to the wireless remotes and when they fire. The pop-up flash contributes nothing at all to the subject illumination when it is uses as a controller for the wireless flash setup.

If you're worried about how the camera knows how much light only the wireless remote is placing on the subject when in TTL mode, the answer is the same way it would know if the remote were placed on the camera hotshoe and fired. The remote fires a preflash that the camera measures before the remote fires the flash used to illuminate the subject for the exposure. So the remote flash is actually firing two bursts of light in very quick sequence after the onboard flash has completed its single flash containing the coded instructions.

allan
05-13-2008, 09:47 PM
If you're worried about the amount of light that the pop-up flash puts out, don't. There is a minute time delay between when the pop-up flash illuminates and passes it's instructions to the wireless remotes and when they fire. The pop-up flash contributes nothing at all to the subject illumination when it is uses as a controller for the wireless flash setup.

I'm confused. This post seems to indicate that the pop-up flash does show up in pictures taken when both the camera and flash are in RC mode:

http://forum.fourthirdsphoto.com/showpost.php?p=295786&postcount=3

Holy Ghosted
05-13-2008, 10:26 PM
No, the on camera flash is fired a split second before and low enough power that it has no effect on your photos not even as a little fill.

Johannes
05-13-2008, 10:28 PM
No, the on camera flash is fired a split second before and low enough power that it has no effect on your photos not even as a little fill.

And the pilot flash has 3 steps of output too :)

allan
05-13-2008, 10:41 PM
No, the on camera flash is fired a split second before and low enough power that it has no effect on your photos not even as a little fill.

But the light from the pop-up flash does show up in the photo if the subject has a shiny front surface (such as a clock). I tried the following experiment and here are my results:

With the FL-36R bounced straight up and held off-camera in my left hand in RC mode, and the camera also in RC mode, I get a significant reflection off the front surface of the clock as a result of light firing from the pop-up flash. I know the reflection is coming from the pop-up flash because when I repeat the test and hold my other hand in front of the pop-up flash, the reflection is gone.

And needless to say, when the flash is mounted in the camera's hot shoe and bounced straight up, the reflection in the front surface of the clock is gone because the pop-up flash is now no longer a factor.

mronen
05-13-2008, 10:58 PM
...
If you're worried about how the camera knows how much light only the wireless remote is placing on the subject when in TTL mode, the answer is the same way it would know if the remote were placed on the camera hotshoe and fired. The remote fires a preflash that the camera measures before the remote fires the flash used to illuminate the subject for the exposure. So the remote flash is actually firing two bursts of light in very quick sequence after the onboard flash has completed its single flash containing the coded instructions.

The energy of the main flash burst fired by the remote, is determined by the camera after the pre-flash. This info must be passed on from the camera to the remote flash, so there should be another coded burst from the pop-up to the remote, between its two bursts (or a quenching pulse, to stop the main bust. I don't think it's possible, because the sensor on the remote is probably blinded by its own flash during the burst).

Moshe

keef
07-17-2008, 06:34 AM
Just to put my 2 cents worth in ( and yes i'm new to this)

from the little experience i've had i did ( or thought i did) noticethat the pop up flash contributed to the light output ( although in a small way) when using the remote flash

so I decided to take a picture of myself in a mirror with the FL-50R sitting on a table beside me.

You can clearly see the pop up flash output as well as the remote flash in the picture.. True its not as bright as it would be using the pop up by itself but it is there.

Those who say it doesn't should try this. prove me wrong!!!

Big Ga
07-17-2008, 06:52 AM
Almost seems like pocket wizards or Micro-sync's are the way to go then, rather than the R flash units...?

I think the real answer is that both methods have their pros and cons and in reality you should be able to have both at your disposal.

The cameras own TTL method is quick, easy and lets you adjust exposure on the fly. But it doesn't physically work in all situations so often you have to go to a radio based system and shoot in manual.

Of course two other things to consider are the radiopoppers, and also that Quantum do offer a remote TTL system as well, but I'm not sure if this works properly with Olympus.

travelfotografer
07-17-2008, 11:12 AM
I have further found that at shutter speeds 1/320s and above, the pop-up flash does not show in a mirror shot when in RC mode.

Big Ga
07-17-2008, 11:18 AM
I have further found that at shutter speeds 1/320s and above, the pop-up flash does not show in a mirror shot when in RC mode.

did you try making sure the flash refections was at the very top of the frame and then try again with it in the bottom?