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Thread: Nikon D200 may explain delay in E-1 successor

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    Default Nikon D200 may explain delay in E-1 successor

    Greetings,

    Nikon officially announced the 10.2 megapixel D200 today and it is a very nice looking camera. Phil Askey managed to get a pre-production model and has a preview at DPReview. The camera body will have a list price $1849 in the U.S. and has a weather/dust-sealed magnesium alloy body, 2.5-inch LCD and can burst up to 22 raw shots at 5 fps.

    It is surprisingly close to the D2x in features. About the only thing that I don't like about it are its 95% FOV in the viewfinder (compared to the 100% FOV of the D2x) and the fact that Nikon has dropped support for TIFF files. Admittedly, the latter is not a mainstream feature. However, the prosumer-quality viewfinder is probably where some of the cost savings were obtained (Nikon is marketing this camera at prosumers or as a backup camera for pros).

    Another noteworthy point is that Nikon still has not provided a way to prevent and/or easily clean dust from the image sensor. Olympus continues to "own" the field on this point.

    If it is true that Olympus was forced to rework their E-1 successor to make certain that it is competitive, then I think foreknowledge of the D200 was probably a major driving force.

    I wasn't very concerned about the Canon EOS 5D because of its price. But the Nikon D200 drops the gauntlet in an unmistakeable way.

    My expectations for Olympus at PMA 2006 are rising...
    Best regards, FL

    Pursuing excellence...

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    Default Re:Nikon D200 may explain delay in E-1 successor

    Before my E-1, I was a Nikon F80 user. Looking around for a dSLR, I was completely uninterested in the D70 - but the D200 does look nice. In fact, there\'s more than a passing resemblance to the E-1, no?

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    Default Re:Nikon D200 may explain delay in E-1 successor

    The Oly guy I know, said it was because of the 5D However, I think that you are right.
    T

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    Default Re:Nikon D200 may explain delay in E-1 successor

    We can debate this until the cows come home. Answer this, what camera would have done better being released before Christmas, the E-500 or a new E-x?

    Many people didn\'t like the E-300 because of its Pen-F styling, and Olympus has been phasing out the high-end C-x0x0 models, so they needed a camera to fill that void left by the lack of new high-end C-series...is that a new E-x?

    I\'m sorry, but I\'m just sick of people trying to second guess Olympus, trying to guess what the new E-x will be, and otherwise whining and complaining.

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    Default Re:Nikon D200 may explain delay in E-1 successor

    I don\'t think it is second guessing, more just talking about things.

    I think the D200 looks *really* nice. That interests me alot more than the 5d or the 20d. If I were choosing a DSLR today, that one would get a really hard look.

    I would venture to guess the E-1 successor was kept on the fine tuning block because of the 5d and this d200.

    I hope they come out with something incredible. My husband is getting antsy. He wants my E-1 badly

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    Default Re:Nikon D200 may explain delay in E-1 successor

    I believe the next Oly is already way past engineering and it is down to software. If it is released in the first part of \'06 it would already be tooled and ready to produce.

    Nikon and Canon have never been benchmarks for Oly and probably never will. If it weren\'t for Olympus they\'d still have D60 cameras on the market.
    E-1
    E-5
    EP-3
    EPL-1
    EM-5
    Pen F
    M8.2
    M9-P
    M 240
    Dlux 109
    M-6
    Enuff lenses to supply the world.

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    Default Re:Nikon D200 may explain delay in E-1 successor

    I\'m very proud of this forum for acknowledging how nice a camera the D200 seems to be and not feel threatened at all...

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    Default Re:Nikon D200 may explain delay in E-1 successor

    I bought into the 4/3 system at the start of it, because I knew the glass would rock. The E-1 in terms of cameras is old as the technology changes.
    I really liked the 20D too. I think that the newest camera out will always be a bit better than te previous, at least at this time. In a few years things will flatten out.
    T

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    Default Re:Nikon D200 may explain delay in E-1 successor

    mikefellh wrote:
    ...I'm sorry, but I'm just sick of people trying to second guess Olympus, trying to guess what the new E-x will be, and otherwise whining and complaining.
    I agree with you about the whining and complaining but that's not happening here (so far).

    The introduction of the D200 is a significant development in the photography industry and it's a very nice camera. If you don't like to discuss the implications of a camera like this to future Olympus cameras, then please don't join this thread. That's what I do—if I see a thread that doesn't interest me, then I just ignore it and go on to the next one.

    I think this has been a very friendly place and I hope it stays that way.
    Best regards, FL

    Pursuing excellence...

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    Default Re:Nikon D200 may explain delay in E-1 successor

    Den wrote:
    I\'m very proud of this forum for acknowledging how nice a camera the D200 seems to be and not feel threatened at all...
    Agreed.
    Best regards, FL

    Pursuing excellence...

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    Default Re:Nikon D200 may explain delay in E-1 successor

    Sorry Fl, I\'m with Mike on this one.

    it\'s getting to be like a bunch of kids trying to unearth their presents on Christmas Eve. The anticipation is half the joy, but people are working themselves into a lather about someting that may not be delivered. Is anbody here struggling so hard with their E-1/300/500 that the wait is that unbearable?

    If it turns up 16mp, inbody IS, 8fps RAW to card capacity etc, etc, then I will be over joyed and start flogging my wife\'s possessions to ensure I have it at the earliest opportunity. But like Mike, I dread the hand wringing that will ensue if it doesn\'t turn out to be the ultimate weapon that will prove everybody else wrong.

    If this turns out to be the case, lets jump ahead and start looking forward to the E-11. It will have 22mp, 20fps RAW to card limit, 100% coverage 1x magnification viewfinder, live preview, pelical mirror, weigh 250g but balance a 400mm f2 in the hand, 20 eye selectable focus points and arrive 6 months before Canon manage it, ad infinitum.

    We know we have the best glass across a system and it will ALL work with future bodies, but it will never be delivered at the rate Canon can kick it out. I have yet to hear of anyone on this forum who can extract 100% of the performance out of their existing body, I know I can\'t - it still surprises me, so lets relax a bit. We know we are onto a good thing, so lets kick back and feel smug about it.

    For what it\'s worth I think the D200 is yet another Nikon evolution that looks just like the last one with a bigger screen and doesn\'t really move the breed on a quantum leap. Won\'t stop people buying it by the bucket load though.

    Russell
    EP-1, 14-42mm, FL36, Macs, PSCS, Realviz Stitcher.

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    Default Re:Nikon D200 may explain delay in E-1 successor

    We have no idea if all our glass will work with all the bodies to come! Olympus changed lens mounts twice before ( from screw thread to OM to 4/3) and I seem to remember a fl40 flash that worked with E1 ( I think) but not totally with E300 or E500. All things change.
    The Nik*n looks interesting. I am glad to see them give Can*n a run for their money. It will get to be interesting.
    thanks
    barondla

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    Default Re:Nikon D200 may explain delay in E-1 successor

    Well said. russ.will

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    Default Re:Nikon D200 may explain delay in E-1 successor

    russ.will wrote:
    ...it's getting to be like a bunch of kids trying to unearth their presents on Christmas Eve. The anticipation is half the joy, but people are working themselves into a lather about someting that may not be delivered. ...
    So far two of you guys have voiced a negative opinion of this discussion of the D200 and its possible bearing on an E-1 successor. Fine. Then please don't participate in the discussion. Go start another thread with a topic that you want to discuss. Surely you don't expect everyone here to discuss only topics that you approve of.

    But don't exaggerate the tone of this thread. I haven't detected any "lathering" in this discussion. Nor has there been any hint of puerile Christmas digging. The D200 is a very relevant topic because it sets a new benchmark. It may indeed be just an "evolutionary" step but it also lowers the cost for a camera of this quality and that should have a bearing on the E-1 successor.
    Best regards, FL

    Pursuing excellence...

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    Default Re:Nikon D200 may explain delay in E-1 successor

    C\'mon guys .... don\'t make me disagree with all of you!

    I think it\'s important to have discussions that have different points of view and so for one am happy with people chiming in with dissenting opinions. Otherwise a \"love in\" gets kind of boring, don\'t you think? I agree with mike and russ and don\'t hear their objections as whining but rather a real hazard ahead. We tend to get enthusiastic about our desires for the next Olympus release and keep forgetting that there are design tradeoffs to most choices, that Olympus is a smaller company with a small market share to justify outlandish \"gee whiz\" features that make it hard to see a good return on investment and that their don\'t really employ wizards - just engineers.

    What I\'m saying is it is really easy to raise the bar on expectations and these expectations of constant home runs have a down side. We get crazy about what to expect - and \"bam\" along comes a good camera, even a great camera - And the faithful feel let down, cheated even - because we got so optimistic. It\'s good to pop the helium balloon once in a while and I think russ has put it well. I don\'t hear it as going against anything ... rather a realistic hazard to watch out for. This is part of good debate and a healthy community. If we get rigid about being only fans, and not also critics - heck we are going to wind up like those Nikon guys

    Speaking of Nikon. I don\'t think I qualify as insecure about their success and welcome it. But!

    I don\'t get the accolades on the D200 - except from the typical Nikon view that all is always great if it has Nikon on the front - and dissenters will burn in that place of fire - with a poor performing Canon 5D in their unworthy hands! I even hear of people wanting to jump ship before the first frame is fired. Lets balance the viewpoint a bit.

    To buy a camera body you primarily wed into a lens system and you are also greatly putting your confidence in the perceived direction of the company. When I think of Nikon, sorry to say - I don\'t feel very confident. My confidence is with their refresh cycle. The D100 was brought out a bit over three years ago and was a good competitor to the Canon D60. After that the 10D came along and improved the competitive edge. Nothing from Nikon. Then over a year ago the 20D came along and stopped the pretense that there was any mid range parity between the brands. Nikon nothing. Finally the D200 strolls in a year too late and it is essentially a 20D.

    8 megapixels to 10. Who cares. 5 Frames per second, crop, viewfinder, build, pop-up flash (yuck!) size, start up time, iso range and most other basic characteristic are the same - unless you want to really split hairs. The rear lcd is an improvement but only if it is sharper than the poor one on the D2hs and the minor buffer improvement is nice for some. You can get the 20D all over the place for 13,50 so the 1799 price of the D200 is a fair sized handicap. I personally find only one thing really great and that is the ability to throttle back the five frames per second to a slower speed when 5 is too much. Hardly a home run in my book and there is still that nervous feeling that canon is already ready with an answer ( it always seems to be ) and then Nikon fans will have to wait for two more generations of Canon models and slide further to the back of the class.
    That is hardly a confident note to jump to Nikon on.

    More to the point is that marketing seems to be the thing, we all know that but it isn\'t what the mother ships broadcast - but rather what the word is in the forums that determines the desirability on sales of a model.
    With that in mind - please don\'t hold up the D200 as some kind of wonder camera - Save our voices for Olympus
    Seriously by the time the new Olympus hits everyone will be saturated with how there is unbelievable value everywhere else.

    I don\'t thing that Olympus has delayed the E-3 for anyone. The 5D is no competition as it is something ( Full Frame) that Olympus doesn\'t have their hands in so it is a parallel product they don\'t compete with. The only question may have been if the E-3 may be around the same price. I know we keep expecting miracles with prices - but that is based on the performance of Canon primarily. How will all of us feel is the new E-3 comes in at a price premium akin to their best lenses? Say it is 6 frames per second, decent iso 800 performance, focus tracking almost as good as a 1Dmk2 or D2x and image stabilization in body. THat is a realistic but optimistic hope right? Say it has a 4,800 price tag?
    With the realignment of expectations down from the fanciful high - i\'d say that Olympus supporters have to worry about a mass exodus and the end of the dream that we are major (pro) contenders.
    It would not be that Olympus faltered but rather that we expected too much based on nothing but desires and the let down would be tough. I keep hearing these guesses that the price will be somewhere around two thousand - and these predictions scare me. If it\'s $2000 then likely it will not be a match for the $4000 to $8000 pro bodies and if it is - then we better prepare ourselves to pony up, right?

    I think that the 2006 time frame for the e-3\'s release is based mostly in just the fact that these things simply take time - especially for a smaller company. I do worry about it. The E-3 will make a big difference on how seriously Olympus is taken on the important pro front. I\'m hoping for a miracle. something completely new and \"wow!\" - but I am worried about depending on it. .... and darn it .... I\'m sick of hearing about canon and nikon. So maybe I am insecure about the D200 after all
    To find the answers - question them!

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    Default Re:Nikon D200 may explain delay in E-1 successor

    First Light wrote:
    So far two of you guys have voiced a negative opinion of this discussion of the D200 and its possible bearing on an E-1 successor. Fine. Then please don\'t participate in the discussion. Go start another thread with a topic that you want to discuss. Surely you don\'t expect everyone here to discuss only topics that you approve of.
    Aren\'t you doing the exact same thing in regards to the above quote?

    You can\'t take only the comments that you approve of. It\'s the nature of forums like this for those to say what they feel like on the subject...you have to take the bad with the good.

    It\'s not like a manufacturer\'s forum where all comments are screened before posting, and only positive comments, or comments that agree with your opinion are approved and posted.

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    Default Re:Nikon D200 may explain delay in E-1 successor

    EP-1, 14-42mm, FL36, Macs, PSCS, Realviz Stitcher.

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    Default Re:Nikon D200 may explain delay in E-1 successor

    First Light wrote:
    ....please don\'t participate in the discussion. Go start another thread with a topic that you want to discuss.
    Sorry mate, I really didn\'t mean to offend, but a forum is for all points of view and that means some may differ from yours. Otherwise it\'s just a politically correct love in.

    I agree with you that the D200 moves the game on in bang per buck and if I were new to the game now, it would be making quite a compelling case for it\'s self. But I really do hope Olympus aren\'t delaying anything pending the release of a competitors camera for a couple of reasons:

    1. The next great thing never arrives.

    2. I don\'t want a Nikon beater. Now I have made my commitment, I want the best Olympus can deliver when it\'s properly ready, I\'m not going to jump ship every generation of upgrades.

    As regards the \'lathering\' it was more a reference to the sheer number of threads that address this topic, although I did quite like the Nikolympus fakes.

    As regards barondla\'s forward compatability comments. Yes, I too was the victim of an expensive FL40 that wouldn\'t work with an E-300, but I think that a change of lense mount by Olympus every 20 to 30 years is probably tollerable.

    I suppose it would be interesting to know whether leaps in technology will obsolete interchangeable lanses altogether. In the scientific journals I have noticed the development of lense elements able to change profile progressively due to an applied electrical charge. A 7-200mm F2 may be a reality in our photographic life times. I am excited about what\'s just round the corner, it\'s just that its the quantum leaps in the future that really float my boat!

    Regards

    Russell
    EP-1, 14-42mm, FL36, Macs, PSCS, Realviz Stitcher.

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    Default Re:Nikon D200 may explain delay in E-1 successor

    russ.will wrote:
    Sorry mate, I really didn't mean to offend, but a forum is for all points of view and that means some may differ from yours. Otherwise it's just a politically correct love in.
    mikefellh wrote:
    ...You can't take only the comments that you approve of. It's the nature of forums like this for those to say what they feel like on the subject...you have to take the bad with the good.
    Pavel wrote:
    I think it's important to have discussions that have different points of view and so for one am happy with people chiming in with dissenting opinions. Otherwise a "love in" gets kind of boring, don't you think?
    I think you each missed my point. I agree 1000% in allowing different points of view. And, Pavel, please disagree with me as often as you wish—I love your humor. Mike, I love the irony here: I'm criticized for criticizing someone who criticized. Mike and Russell, you've just contradicted yourselves. On the one hand you don't seem to want to hear folks discuss what might be (i.e. speculate on a future Olympus pro body) and yet now you say we should be tolerant of different points of view. Huh?

    My suggestion to not participate in this discussion has nothing to do with limiting points of view but rather pointing out that if you don't like to discuss this topic—whatever your point of view—then please don't. If I see a message thread on a subject like "We don't need Image Stabilization (IS)" I don't jump in and write that I think it's childish for members to discuss this subject. I simply move on to another topic that I do want to participate in. (By the way, I think IS is an interesting topic.)
    Best regards, FL

    Pursuing excellence...

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    Default Re:Nikon D200 may explain delay in E-1 successor

    My point of view was that I disagreed with some one elses view, not that they shouldn\'t make their view known.

    Can we call a truce on this one? We\'re getting into the realm of hijacked topics. Please don\'t start me on that one!!!

    Best Wishes

    Russell
    EP-1, 14-42mm, FL36, Macs, PSCS, Realviz Stitcher.

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    Default Re:Nikon D200 may explain delay in E-1 successor

    Pavel wrote:
    The 5D is no competition as it is something ( Full Frame) that Olympus doesn\'t have their hands
    I though the whole point is that 4/3s is full frame. I suspect the media will judge the E-5 to be a direct competitor when it arrives. I can see the group tests already!

    Russell
    EP-1, 14-42mm, FL36, Macs, PSCS, Realviz Stitcher.

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    Default Re:Nikon D200 may explain delay in E-1 successor

    russ.will wrote:
    I though the whole point is that 4/3s is full frame. I suspect the media will judge the E-5 to be a direct competitor when it arrives.
    I may be able to shed some light here (sorry for the pun ). There is a problem with the label "full frame" because it means two totally different things and Canon and Olympus do not use the same meaning. I'll explain...

    Full Frame Size
    When Canon (and most of the digital photography industry) use the phrase "full frame" to describe a digital image sensor they mean that the sensor is the same size as a 35mm film frame. Therefore the lens image circle of a legacy lens (designed for a 35mm film camera) is not cropped. This is both good and bad and we should probably start a new thread if you would like to get into it further.

    Full Frame Scanning
    When Olympus (and most of the computer, video and television industries) use the phrase "full frame" they mean that the image is comprised of a single "progressively" scanned field and is therefore not comprised of two interleaved fields. Note: The video industry uses the word "field" instead of "frame". Remember that many types of video (including our old NTSC TV signals in the U.S.) are an interleaved signal where half the video lines are painted on the screen in one pass and the second half in the second pass. Even the new DTV standard has some interleaved formats (such as 1080i).

    Digital camera sensors (video and still photo) are often interleaved also. When they detect the light, they do it in two scans. Olympus made sure that the 4/3-type sensor scans the picture in a single pass and that's why they call their sensor a "full frame" rather than interleaved sensor.

    The meaning used by Olympus is the oldest.
    Best regards, FL

    Pursuing excellence...

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    Default Re:Nikon D200 may explain delay in E-1 successor

    I could have chosen my words differently but I meant it FF as in the old 35 mm standard, which is the big draw to the 5D. I like it from the point of view of the very shallow dof and the fantastic view through the viewfinder and at the same time I like the 2X multiplier of the Oly as it reduces the weight of the lenses. I don\'t agree with the term FF for Olympus. I can see the label \"designed from scratch\" but to me it\'s only FF when there is no multiplier given. A 50 on the 4/3drs system has the same characteristic as a 100mm lens would have on the 5D except the different depth of field. They sheared off ( and I hasten to add that I like it ) the imaging circle, thus giving a better weight and size to aperture ratio - but even acording to Olympus there is a 2x multiplier.

    In the end it has good and bad points as do most design decisions. I like Olympus\'s gutsy and unique verve. Wish other companies had more of that. I fear though that photographers are a pretty staid, conservative lot. Something has to be established before all the lemmings will accept something new. You would think that a creative bunch like photographers would all be jumping at the chance for something off the beaten path. I haven\'t seen much of that though, and it\'s a shame as I feel it directly and undesirably impacts Olympus\'s acceptance.

    Nikon my suspicion is will one day go to a FF sensor, but they do not manufacture their own and are I feel unable to go that route for the time being. Canon has the big R&D bucks and it\'s own fabs - a terrible advantage for them. Once again I want to repeat that I don\'t see anything in the D200 that the 20D can\'t give a person. The current price\'s are 1199 - so that is a driving force as well against the D200. The Olympus E-1 when it gets here I hope by contrast will be a compelling alternative based on truly unique attributes. The dust shaker, the digital from the ground up lenses, the unique low aperture focal lengths ( the 35-200 and the 100-250 are unmatched anywhere) and hopefully the built in image stabilization - that will truly be something to crow about, and forget the D200 with

    Now .... how long does a guy have to wait ?
    To find the answers - question them!

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    Default Re:Nikon D200 may explain delay in E-1 successor

    Well i don\'t know if anyone else has held a D200 yet, but at a PMA confernce day here in New Zealand, i got to play with one for a coupla minutes...
    It\'s got a way nicer (physicaly easier/comfortable to look through) viewfinder than say a D70 or that other cheepee EOS 300D/350D. And NO i don\'t wear glasses B)
    Also the body weight & grip is sim to a KM-7D (D200 frame built sim to an E1).
    And ANY dSLR that comes out is now on, is gonna have to have the 2.5\" LCD, \'cause its real nice to use & would be hard to go back to 1.8\" type LCD.
    Can\'t comment on photos as i didn\'t have a CARD with me :blush:

    A goodday, with RICOH footing the bill for HAPPY HOUR drinks afterwards... :woohoo:
    Olympus E-600, E-1 + FS2 + SHLD2 + RM-CB1, FC-1 & RF-11, FL-36R, FL-36 + FL-CB05, 9~18 / 14~54 / 50~200SWD / 14~42 / 70~300 / 35mm / 50mm + EX-25, EC-14, MF-1 & Tamron 350mm f5.6 CAT-Mirror, 1x BLM1, Metz 45-CL4 & SlingShot 200AW

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    Default Re:Nikon D200 may explain delay in E-1 successor

    iRok ... life isn\'t fair ... and your post confirms it! :sick:

    Any thoughts on how the new focus point layout suited you. I like the look of it. I\'ve got 45 focus points in one of my bodies and boy is it awesome for for aspects of photography like focus tracking and endless choices - but everything has a down side and in my case here I find it as much a liability as at other times a plus to have so many.

    I put a lot of stock into the \"zen\" of a piece of gear - and thought the Nikon 11 point layout has some failings overall I find it best. The reason is that I don\'t have to push any buttons or think at all to navigate them with the joy stick Nikon uses. It just works in my brain. I noticed from the little that I\'ve seen that the coverage is a bit smaller and that the points are not at thirds. Any thoughts on this and how the layout worked for you?

    Did you use the wide field focus at all? How was the focus speed? I had found in my previous experience that there is a great gulf between the Nikon Pro bodies like the D2h and the consumer bodies like the D70. The striking differences were how the buttons feel to use - and even more the eye relief and the viewfinder look.
    The viewfinders on the D2h etc are pretty good - excellent for their size and looking throught the opening there is no problem seeing all corners and the lcd display without shifting the eye. Not so on the consumer grade stuff. That is a big deal to me - what did you think of these characteristics?

    Life\'s not fair ... but at least we get little tid bits. So that\'s kinda like our little non-alchoholic version of happy hour. Thanks for the post!
    To find the answers - question them!

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