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Thread: Rumour of Nikon going towards 4/3ds

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    Default Rumour of Nikon going towards 4/3ds

    6x4.5 ratio is actually mentioned. The rumour about the new Canon 22mp and its possible new lens system could also mean Canon may move in that direction thus using the same ratio as the large medium format backs.
    David

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    Default Re: Rumour of Nikon going towards 4/3ds

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidL View Post
    6x4.5 ratio is actually mentioned. The rumour about the new Canon 22mp and its possible new lens system could also mean Canon may move in that direction thus using the same ratio as the large medium format backs.
    David
    Gotta be careful there. I think it'd be less confusing to say "towards 4/3 aspect" as "4/3ds" is common shorthand for the camera system. That said, I don't understand why 3:2 has survived as long as it has. Aesthetically it's a niche framing, and highly wasteful of light now that most photography is no longer tied to film. OTOH what I really want is a 25mm square sensor with 25mpix!

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    Default Re: Rumour of Nikon going towards 4/3ds

    Sounds like suicide to me. Can't imagine nikon doing that. Canon maybe they already have 3 different sensor sizes.
    thanks
    barondla

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    Default Re: Rumour of Nikon going towards 4/3ds

    Quote Originally Posted by acme View Post
    OTOH what I really want is a 25mm square sensor with 25mpix!
    Sounds good to me!
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    Default Re: Rumour of Nikon going towards 4/3ds

    Quote Originally Posted by barondla View Post
    Sounds like suicide to me. Can't imagine nikon doing that. Canon maybe they already have 3 different sensor sizes.
    thanks
    barondla
    Assuming this means 4:3 aspect ratio rather than the 4/3 standard, why not? Nikon would save some $$ on CCD fab costs, and the 4:3 aspect ratio fits the traditional larger paper sizes (8x10, 11x14, 16x20, 20X24) better than 3:2, and is a better fit for publication full-page or double page spreads.
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    Default Re: Rumour of Nikon going towards 4/3ds

    The sensor in my D200 is slightly squarer than in my D70, but I really doubt Nikon going too far in the direction (unfortunately). I used to own a modified Nikon FE that took 24x34mm frames and I loved the chromes that it produced. I've never understood the appeal of 24x36mm or 6x9. IMO, its not long enough for panoramic and too long for general photography.

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    Default Re: Rumour of Nikon going towards 4/3ds

    Greetings,

    You could just as easily argue that a 4 x 3 aspect ratio is outdated. If I'm not mistaken, it goes back to early motion picture film and later NTSC video.

    Today, the imaging world is moving toward a "widescreen" aspect ratio which would favor 16 x 9. Sony has a true 16 x 9 sensor that is used in several cameras.

    From a pure efficiency standpoint, I like the idea of a square aspect ratio, too. It will utilize the lens image circle the most efficiently of any four-sided shape. Just think: no more landscape versus portrait orientation. But if I had a square sensor, I'd also want a very sophisticated viewfinder that allowed me to turn on and off grid lines as needed to help me frame for various formats. I'd like a 4 x 3, 3 x 2 and 16 x 9 frame in the viewfinder. I'd also like optional rule-of-thirds grids within each frame. Perhaps the grid lines could be projected onto the surface of the focusing screen from a side-mounted micro LCD projector. The same system could be used to enable/disable the appearance of AF zones and other useful information in the image area of the viewfinder.
    Best regards, FL

    Pursuing excellence...

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    Default Re: Rumour of Nikon going towards 4/3ds

    FL hit it right on the nail; i wrote about this suggestion many moons ago in the other forum: my idea was to have a native square sensor but since not everyone can compose through a square VF and crop later, the camera can display a mask on demand (a la Contax G) , the mask could form a 16:9, 4:3 or 3:2 or even a custom format of choice; the mask would black out the borders and only leave the center visible; the lines FL mention would be useful for leveling the horizon and compose in rule of thirds but may not help the final compo fully since the photographer still sees a square mostly. The mask could be totally black or slight transparent grey if one wants to 'see' the borders around the image. This can be implemented easily since Contax has done it w the G series.
    Cheers

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    Default Re: Rumour of Nikon going towards 4/3ds

    It is an interesting thought but I can't see any good reason to put a square sensor into a 4/3 camera (or any other camera) and then crop to the format you want.

    The reason is that I very seldomly end up with a square crop of my images. 99% of the cases I end up with either 4:3 or 8:5. So it then makes more sense to use a rectangular native format and then crop if you want the image square.

    Also using a natively square sensor if you are not using that format in the majority of your shots is wasteful with respect to sensor resolution: Cropping to 4:3 gives a loss of 25% of the pixels, 3:2 gives a loss of 33% of the pixels and with a 16:9 crop 44% of the pixels are lost.

    In that scenario, since I most often end up with a rectangular format of my images, I'd prefer a 4/3 sized sensor which is a good format in-between the extremes and hence a sensible choice for a sensor and then crop from there. It will give a higher number of pixels to build up the average image.

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    Default Re: Rumour of Nikon going towards 4/3ds

    Quote Originally Posted by jebir View Post
    Also using a natively square sensor if you are not using that format in the majority of your shots is wasteful with respect to sensor resolution: Cropping to 4:3 gives a loss of 25% of the pixels, 3:2 gives a loss of 33% of the pixels and with a 16:9 crop 44% of the pixels are lost.
    But the sensor is no longer the majority cost in typical bodies, while glass remains expensive. A square sensor makes for a better return from one's lens investment by allowing the crop to be a purely post process choice, if one crops at all. Even a hexagonal sensor isn't as perverse as it might seem while staring at a rectangular monitor. It tessellates (for production efficiency), and oval frames are not uncommon. The mirror would be a little funky though.

    I picked 25mm because it avoids the worst of the outer edges of typical 35mm lenses, and 25mpix because this yields roughly the e-400's sensel size. I'm all for adding FL's viewfinder to this increasingly hypothetical camera!

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    Default Re: Rumour of Nikon going towards 4/3ds

    It would be suicide for many reasons.
    1. Canikon are both very conservative companies. Their DSLRs look and work as much as possible as their film slrs did. They didn't bring you sensor cleaning, inbody image stabilization, live view, etc. Their improvements have tended to be speed of camera shooting.
    2. Canikon shooters are very conservative. They shoot what everyone else does and don't like many surprises. They don't cope well with the new and unknown.
    3. It would cost Nikon more money to dump Sony sensors than they would save. They can't afford to make a custom sensor for themselves. It helps them that Sony, and Pentax are using the same sensors ( I know they change sensors slightly, but not the same as building from scratch).
    4. Their users are used to the 3:2 format. That is all either company has made. Some of these people want full frame so their lenses work like they should. Throwing a different format in the mix would be even worse. It throws everything off.
    5. If Canikon shooters wanted a different format they would shoot 4:3. They aren't in any great numbers. Most despise 4:3.
    6. If it ain't broke don't fix it. Canikon is the DSLR market. Why change what is working? If you add in Sony, and Pentax the 3:2 format is by far the most popular.
    7. As FL mentioned the future is headed to longer formats. Look at the new tvs.
    thanks
    barondla

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    Default Re: Rumour of Nikon going towards 4/3ds

    In some ways this would make perfect sense for Nikon. They would get to increase the real-estate for pixels without having to reduce pixel pitch significantly. Great for marketing and will fool many but not the professionals. No risks at all for Nikon doing this and many advantages. As others have stated, a square is the most efficient use of the light, so why not get close with a better aspect ratio. Nikon is not going to survive following Canon; they have to think up something new.
    fficeffice" />>>
    Me I would love to see square sensors so that you are able to choose the aspect ratio and orientation of your shot. The only difficulty I see at present are restrictions in viewfinder size.
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    Default Re: Rumour of Nikon going towards 4/3ds

    Quote Originally Posted by jebir View Post
    It is an interesting thought but I can't see any good reason to put a square sensor into a 4/3 camera (or any other camera) and then crop to the format you want.

    The reason is that I very seldomly end up with a square crop of my images. 99% of the cases I end up with either 4:3 or 8:5. So it then makes more sense to use a rectangular native format and then crop if you want the image square.

    Also using a natively square sensor if you are not using that format in the majority of your shots is wasteful with respect to sensor resolution: Cropping to 4:3 gives a loss of 25% of the pixels, 3:2 gives a loss of 33% of the pixels and with a 16:9 crop 44% of the pixels are lost.

    In that scenario, since I most often end up with a rectangular format of my images, I'd prefer a 4/3 sized sensor which is a good format in-between the extremes and hence a sensible choice for a sensor and then crop from there. It will give a higher number of pixels to build up the average image.

    Cheers, Jens.
    Give me a square sensor and I'd be happy to "waste" 25% of the pixels just so I wouldn't have to turn the camera for portrait mode.

    In fact why not make the chip hexagonal. Maximizes fabrication space and gives me more to work with, for those of us, like me, who print circular
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    Default Re: Rumour of Nikon going towards 4/3ds

    Quote Originally Posted by Latemarch View Post
    Give me a square sensor and I'd be happy to "waste" 25% of the pixels just so I wouldn't have to turn the camera for portrait mode.

    In fact why not make the chip hexagonal. Maximizes fabrication space and gives me more to work with, for those of us, like me, who print circular
    Why not? Indeed, the 4/3 would be prime candidate for this since it has the smallest sensor. OTOH, some of the lenses have internal 4:3 baffles, so that would defeat the purpose...

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    Default Re: Rumour of Nikon going towards 4/3ds

    Hi acme,

    Quote Originally Posted by acme View Post
    But the sensor is no longer the majority cost in typical bodies, while glass remains expensive.
    ...
    I picked 25mm because it avoids the worst of the outer edges of typical 35mm lenses, and 25mpix because this yields roughly the e-400's sensel size. I'm all for adding FL's viewfinder to this increasingly hypothetical camera!
    OK, as long as the square sensor covers the entire focusing circle (or sweet spot of interest if you like) I agree that it could be a good idea.

    However, I doubt that a 25x25 mm 25 MP sensor would be a negligible cost in any body for several years to come and by the way you can't isolate the sensor when discussing the cost. The rest of the rest of the electronics will have to follow the performance of the sensor; an X times increase of pixels demands X times faster processors, bus-transfer rate, larger and faster RAM, storage cards, etc. The relative cost of the components will likely be the same but camera manufacturers will increase the performance while maintaining the price level (which apparently is right for the consumers right now). Anyway, time is flying in this business and assuming that Moore's law holds also for DSLRs, we can expect to see something like your camera available for mortals earliest in the next decade.

    Cheers, Jens.
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    Default Re: Rumour of Nikon going towards 4/3ds

    Hi Jon,

    indeed, the baffles will limit the possibilities for 4/3ds. However, I was also thinking 4/3ds when I wrote my first post in this thread but looking back at the postings I then realized that the discussion is more general than that.

    Cheers, Jens.
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