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Thread: Kodak breakthrough announced today !

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    Default Kodak breakthrough announced today !

    For all the low light fans here is a major announcement from Kodak:
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070614/...hWggHHyWXMWM0F

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    Default Re: Kodak breakthrough announced today !

    Yea I read about that as well. Looks very interesting.

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    Default Re: Kodak breakthrough announced today !

    Old Yellow can still hunt!

    Peter

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    Default Re: Kodak breakthrough announced today !

    About 9 months to a year ago I said son't sell Mother Kodak short.
    Just hang in there..........

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    Default Re: Kodak breakthrough announced today !

    It sounds too good to be true, but I hope it is. Would than mean that Canon could shoot possibly at ISO 12000 and up as they can already shoot respectably at 6400.

    Interesting indeed.


    Thanks for sharing.

    Marek

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    Default Re: Kodak breakthrough announced today !

    bring it on now, I'm ready for it,,

    I do digiscoping (bird photography) through a long telescope and that added couple of f stops would certainly be welcome,,

    thanks Kodak

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    Default Re: Kodak breakthrough announced today !

    That looks really good. In hindsight, I've had a gut feeling that at some point, the bayesian filter will have to go, that there will be some advancement in that range too. Now this is really good news. If you've ever played with Lab colour mode or noise filtering, you know that working the luma component has much more dramatic effect on the image sharpness and the chroma channel doesn't actually need too much resolution.

    Now it's time to give you my next prediction: the same principle will migrate to image formats too... maybe soon we will have compression formats that savour the luminance resolution and compress the chromatic information heavily.

    Larry
    "I never have taken a picture I've intended. They're always better or worse". -Diane Arbus

    Panasonic L1, Leica 14-50, ZD 40-150, Tamron Adaptall 2 SP 300 5.6, Tamron Adaptall 70-150 macro, Slik Master Standard, Volvo 240 GLE

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    Default Re: Kodak breakthrough announced today !

    After reading some more, it seems the increased sensitivity (low light performance) comes by substituting monochrome sensors in place of some color (green?) sensors, so although low light sensitivity is improved, color resolution suffers. By how much I guess we have to wait and see. This is why apparently they are saying the first applications will be telephones and P&S cameras where color resolution is not so critical.

    Peter

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    Default Re: Kodak breakthrough announced today !

    It'll work like the Fuji sensor in reverse. If everything is equal the white channel will saturate long before the colour channels. The interpolator will have lower quality signals from which to gauge the colour.

    OTOH not everything has to be equal - sensels could be sized to optimise speed or colour rendition. But if you're a speed and resolution seeker you toss out the bayer-equivalent filter entirely, gaining a couple stops and avoiding the whole botchy business of interpolation.

    Ultimately, directly measuring the wavelength of individual photos is the way to go...

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    Default Re: Kodak breakthrough announced today !

    Quote Originally Posted by refiningman View Post
    After reading some more, it seems the increased sensitivity (low light performance) comes by substituting monochrome sensors in place of some color (green?) sensors, so although low light sensitivity is improved, color resolution suffers. ...
    Hi Peter,

    I don't think that is right. Most digital image sensors including the ones from Kodak, with very few exceptions, already have monochrome photoreceptors. They don't detect color. That's why Bayer came up with the idea of putting tiny color filters in front of them in a pattern that was named after him (the 1:2:1 "Bayer pattern"). Most sensors use separate red, green and blue (RGB) filters in this pattern and there are a few sensors that have tried a fourth color filter as well. These microscopic color filters are what transforms the monochrome photoreceptors into "color" photoreceptors.

    On top of these tiny RGB filters is a series of larger filters that cover the entire image sensor. These include an infrared blocking filter, a ultraviolet blocking filter, an anti-mosaic filter, etc. Some are glass; some are coatings on the glass.

    What Kodak has developed are more efficient filters which allow more photons of light to reach the photoreceptors.
    Best regards, FL

    Pursuing excellence...

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    Default Re: Kodak breakthrough announced today !

    Hi FL,

    first a note to avoid further confusion in this thread:
    • monochromatic = only one colour
    • panchromatic = all colours
    Kodak's current invention is to replace each second of the monochromatic R, G, and B photosites by panchromatic photosites. Hence the overall light sensitivity of the chip is increased by about 1.5 'stops' (assuming that each panchromatic photosite in average is 4x more sensitive than an R, G, or B site).

    This is apparently done by modifying the Bayer pattern - basically removing the colour filters on each second site. Naturally, the noise will be lowered and the colour resolution decreased but the overall impression of the image looks good anyhow. See this explanation at dpreview.

    So, apart from the monochromatic/panchromatic confusion, Peter is right.

    Cheers, Jens.
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    Default Re: Kodak breakthrough announced today !

    Folks:

    Another discussion from TOP:

    http://theonlinephotographer.typepad...log_index.html

    scroll down to the article on Kodak

    Peter

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    Default Re: Kodak breakthrough announced today !

    Hello again,

    Let's return to the official press release from Kodak:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kodak Press Release
    ROCHESTER, N.Y. - A year from now, capturing a crisp, clear image of a candlelit birthday party could be a piece of cake — even with a camera phone. Eastman Kodak Co. said Thursday it has developed a color-filter technology that at least doubles the sensitivity to light of the image sensor in every digital camera, enabling shutterbugs to take better pictures in poor light. ...
    ...
    ...Analyst Chris Chute doesn't doubt that the new filter system, intended to supplant an industry-standard filter pattern designed by Kodak scientist Bryce Bayer in 1976, represents a breakthrough in boosting photo quality — especially when light conditions are not ideal.
    I highlighted the salient phrases: the "breakthrough" centers on a new filter technology. The photoreceptors have not changed and this is what I think was being confused in the conversation. By themselves the photoreceptors still cannot distinguish color. The "panchromatic" label refers to the function or implementation---not the photoreceptor at the site. That's why the DPReview article said "panchromatic pixels". The filters used (or not used) define that function. The photoreceptors, whether they have a red or a green or a blue filter or no filter will still output a luminence signal that has no chroma. No "sensors" (photoreceptors) are being replaced with the new Kodak technology---just the filters.

    As for the term "monochrome", I think it has two applications here. First, the photoreceptors with a red, green or blue filter only receive photons of red, green or blue light as dictated by their filter. In that sense, the light reaching the photoreceptors is "single color" or monochromatic. Second, laying the filters aside, the photoreceptors, themselves, only detect luminence so their output is monochromatic just like a B&W image is monochromatic because it is comprised of shades of white. In that sense, a panchromatic site still uses a monochromatic photoreceptor.

    Now we could argue that "white" is really not a "color" or that it is "all color" but I think that would be splitting hairs. Most people think of "monochrome" as including a B&W image.

    Maybe part of the muddle is knowing what terminology to use when talking about an image sensor. How do we distinguish between the entire image sensor with all of its "pixels" and a single "pixel"? Then how do we distinguish between a single pixel with its filter and just the sensor underneath the pixel?

    I'm not sure about the terminology because I've seen it used so many different ways by various authors. There are image sensors, photosensors, sensors, sensels, sites, photosites, photoreceptors, etc. Here's the way I've been using it:
    • photoreceptor = a single photon collector on the chip, itself, before any filter is added.
    • image sensor = the entire chip with all of its photoreceptors and individual site filters.
    I've avoided "photosensors" because it's too close to "image sensor". I've avoided "sensor" for the same reason. I'm not sure whether "site" and "photosite" include the RGB filter when it is present. As for "sensel", it seems like a synonym for "photoreceptor".

    Perhaps someone more knowlegeable could give us an accurate lexicon for discussion of image sensors. Or maybe it's a language problem where these terms have slightly different meanings from one region of the world to another.
    Best regards, FL

    Pursuing excellence...

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    Default Re: Kodak breakthrough announced today !

    Hi FL,

    of course the new technology is about filter patterns. However,your reply to Peter gave the impression that you meant that Kodak invented a new filter material that allowed more light to go through.

    Regarding terminology to understand this, ít is sufficient to consider a photoreceptor (sensitive to all colours) together with its specific non-removeble filter as one unit - a photosite - with a specific colour sensitivity. In the new Kodak technology there are red, green, blue, and panchromatic photsites and they are all arranged in a newly invented pattern. I highlighted what I consider new in this.

    As for "panchromatic", it is the correct term for a photosensitive material or detector that is sensitive to all colours. Monochromatic is the word for light that has only one colour. The B&W films are/were usually panchomatic - hence they have/had names like "Tri-X Pan", "Plus-X Pan", etc. By the same logic, a photosite sensitive to all colours is panchromatic and not monochromatic. The latter term can maybe be used for the red, green, and blue photosites since they are each roughly sensitive to one colour only.

    "panchromatic pixel", as used by the dpreview page, is just outright wrong when discussing the sensor array because pixels doesn't exist until the RAW data has been processed into an image where each position has a unique combination of R, G, and B luminance. Such an image position, which can be displayed by a monitor, is a pixel.

    I agree that a little lexicon would be useful for these discussions to avoid confusion but in this case, I think the explanations given at the linked websites give a pretty clear picture of Kodak's invention.

    Cheers, Jens.
    Motto: Wildlife won't come to me unless I go to it.
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    My Wildlife Photos: jensbirch.smugmug.com

    E-5, E-3, E-510, IR-E-1 ,E-P2
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