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Thread: Everyone hates Microsoft...

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    Default Everyone hates Microsoft...

    ...no matter what they do.

    From TOP, who read a compressed article [pun intended] and doesn't see the whole picture [another pun]:

    http://theonlinephotographer.typepad...n-me-this.html

    But if you read a rather more comprehensive article, you get a different perspective [another pun, I'm on a roll]:

    http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/softwar...9280784,00.htm

    Maybe not such a bad thing afterall.

    Cheers

    Ray

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    Default Re: Everyone hates Microsoft...

    It seems like a tug of war between JPEG XR and DNG (Microsoft vs. Adobe) is coming up...

    It is interesting tha Hasselblad already have adopted the new format as they also were one of the first camera makers to adopt DNG.

    For me, any format can be introduced by anyone as long as it doesn't impede the development of better and cheaper imaging technology.

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    Default Re: Everyone hates Microsoft...

    The major point with the Microsoft proposal is that the JPG variant will not be as limited as the current version and better than JPG2000, which never really got off the ground.

    Cheers

    Ray

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    Default Re: Everyone hates Microsoft...

    OzRay,

    As usual another good topic.

    I doubt it is anything more than revenue raising, certainly not philanthropic.

    What surprises me is that nobody seems to have stated the obvious - the ramifications are quite enormous.

    They develop a new proprietory standard, make it accessible to the billions via Windows OS in all flavours (of course you are forced to upgrade - it cant be supported in anything prior to Vista !!!), develop a few neat "got to have" applications and new standards of acceptability force it into every MS application (and thereby create market demand).
    Maybe even prevent IE stop reading normal JPEGs.

    Once that has occurred, the public follows (since we are all feature and specification hungry consumers either by desire or by directive market forces) and then MS eliminates the competition by forcing them to pay royalties and the enforcement of non competitive terms for the use of their patented encoding and decoding algorithms.
    Selectively of course.

    In the mean time they also pick up some healthy royalties on every DLSR camera, DVD player, TV, video playback/editing device (including pro equipment), mobile phone, mp3 player, car stereo system, video storage device, video phone system, video editing software etc etc ever sold around the planet . . . .

    Get the picture ! (pun intended)

    So lets just say they get just 1 cent for every electronic device or piece of software (including firmware) sold over the next 10 years that wants to use this new format - how many billion $ would that equal.

    GPL, open source or freeware etc might no longer be able to exist because the algorithm cant be broken.

    Now I don't want to sound alarmist, but the shareholders will demand it !
    It won't happen overnight but its all part of the Windows-centric master plan.

    Thats my take on it.

    Cheers
    Rally

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    Default Re: Everyone hates Microsoft...

    Why would M$ not try something like this? If the dopes at the JPEG committee table adopt the thing, then M$ is the ONLY piece of current software that could support it. Of course, only with their Vista platform, naturally.

    So will this get a plethora of buyers to upgrade their OS to the Vista bloat-boat?

    I'm sure some will, but others that know their may be some advantage to having a new JPEG XR file option, at the cost of wasting 100's more MB's of hard disk and RAM space will certainly remain on the outside.

    And M$ will then be "forcing" all the other software vendors in the world to adopt a conversion, open and save into their programs is a nice after thought. Of course, M$ will probably ease their troubles by supplying (at a nominal cost of course), the actual code for them to use.

    Don't know if it directly competes with DNG, but rock on DNG in my book. Hassleblad isn't the only native camera DNG file saver. Others are onboard, Olympus should have been since the E-410, and even Pentax does with their K10D. DNG is a good thing...or at least better than a M$ creation...

    And rock on Mac and Linux too...

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    Default Re: Everyone hates Microsoft...

    Quote Originally Posted by 4/3_Pickles View Post
    Why would M$ not try something like this? If the dopes at the JPEG committee table adopt the thing, then M$ is the ONLY piece of current software that could support it. Of course, only with their Vista platform, naturally.
    Its supported on Mac, too. The licensing allows some open source implementions, but specifically prohibits GPL and LGPL. I don't know if the MIT or BSD license is clear.

    But lets be clear on this: Microsoft makes a "Promise" that they won't charge royalties, but they do not make a legal commitment. If MSFT is willing to put the patents in the public sphere with an enforceable license that they will not charge royalties, I'm all for it. I'm also not holding my breath.

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    Default Re: Everyone hates Microsoft...

    Ray, since you're in Australia I'll forgive you for not following the years long antitrust case the U.S. government waged against Microsoft. If you'd followed this case, reading accounts of testimony and the findings of fact, I don't see how you could trust Microsoft to do anything other than maximize their own profits to the exclusion of all other considerations. I don't know what crazy sort of product lock-in Microsoft has planned for the future, but I won't discount it until some serious legal minds say this new standard is free of traps. I will not trust Microsoft's word on it.

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    Default Re: Everyone hates Microsoft...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle Jones View Post
    Ray, since you're in Australia I'll forgive you for not following the years long antitrust case the U.S. government waged against Microsoft. If you'd followed this case, reading accounts of testimony and the findings of fact, I don't see how you could trust Microsoft to do anything other than maximize their own profits to the exclusion of all other considerations. I don't know what crazy sort of product lock-in Microsoft has planned for the future, but I won't discount it until some serious legal minds say this new standard is free of traps. I will not trust Microsoft's word on it.
    Kyle

    I followed some of the anti-trust case, but got bored with it after a short time. The one thing I got out of it is that the State of Massachusetts sounds more like a legal firm, than a public entity.

    That aside, there’s no doubt that Microsoft is pursuing this because it would provide them some advantage, but what large corporation doesn’t? I don’t really care that much about what Microsoft does, as I get well and truly shafted by other companies that are far, far better at it than Microsoft. Take your pick, our Telco’s, insurance companies, councils, supermarkets, fuel providers etc. Microsoft is just a minnow in a shark pool and I can choose to avoid it, but the sharks I can't.

    Cheers

    Ray

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    Default Re: Everyone hates Microsoft...

    My concern is Microsoft itself. They have a long history of exploiting monopolies, and their ethical policies extend only to what the courts hold them to, and no more.

    Spiking Windows 3.0 so that it wouldn't run with a competitor's product (DR DOS), running Netscape off the market so that Linux didn't have an up to date browser, secretly funding the SCO vx Linux lawsuit (Paul Allen owned the investment firm that bought a huge block of SCO stock to fund the lawsuit)... ethical behavior has never been a particularly high priority with them. I'm all for competition, but competition based on a better product, not competition by using a monopoly to throw roadblocks at competitors.

    And MS also pursued a suit against camera and flash card makers for using FAT32 file allocation, after the market flourished and was dependent on it. As sharp as their attornies are on intellectual property, they had to have known FAT32 was being used, and they could have brought that up long before. But, they waited until it became a de facto standard, and then stuck their hand out.

    I'm not saying that Microsoft absolutely will enforce royalties on users of JPEG XR if it becomes a standard, just that they have a history of doing exactly that.

    More likely, MS wants JPEG XR to succeed, so that the best editing software will run on Windows and they keep selling Windows. I'm not a huge fan of Adobe, their stuff is rather overpriced and their RAW converter for the 510 stinks, but at least their standards work on more platforms.
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    Default Re: Everyone hates Microsoft...

    Quote Originally Posted by TrapperJohn View Post
    My concern is Microsoft itself. They have a long history of exploiting monopolies, and their ethical policies extend only to what the courts hold them to, and no more.
    Does it really matter? Microsoft are no worse than any other major corporation. Motor companies had to be hauled into line when they made dodgy cars, industrial manufacturers have had to be dragged kicking and screaming in order to control their polution, airlines have recently been fined for price fixing etc, etc.

    Why the fixation with Microsoft? The thing is, you can chose whether you engage with Microsoft, but you don't have that choice with many other entities for which there are no other alternatives, or viable alternatives. With the fixation that everyone has with Microsoft, many other companies that may be just as bad, or far worse, are flying under the radar.

    Cheers

    Ray

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    Default Re: Everyone hates Microsoft...

    Quote Originally Posted by OzRay View Post
    That aside, there’s no doubt that Microsoft is pursuing this because it would provide them some advantage, but what large corporation doesn’t?
    http://www.canonical.com doesnt. Need more??
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    Default Re: Everyone hates Microsoft...

    Quote Originally Posted by brummie View Post
    http://www.canonical.com doesnt. Need more??
    How do they survive? Are they related to:

    http://www.huhcorp.com/

    Cheers

    Ray

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    Default Re: Everyone hates Microsoft...

    Quote Originally Posted by OzRay View Post
    How do they survive? Are they related to:

    http://www.huhcorp.com/
    HuhCorp has one of the best verbiages on the net. Every one of their main clicks is a worthy read that is a cut to the chase version of major corporate BS.

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    Default Re: Everyone hates Microsoft...

    Quote Originally Posted by OzRay View Post
    How do they survive? Are they related to:

    http://www.huhcorp.com/

    Cheers

    Ray

    Its ubuntu linux owners. They provide services.
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    Default Re: Everyone hates Microsoft...

    Quote Originally Posted by OzRay View Post
    Does it really matter? Microsoft are no worse than any other major corporation. Motor companies had to be hauled into line when they made dodgy cars, industrial manufacturers have had to be dragged kicking and screaming in order to control their polution, airlines have recently been fined for price fixing etc, etc.

    Why the fixation with Microsoft? The thing is, you can chose whether you engage with Microsoft, but you don't have that choice with many other entities for which there are no other alternatives, or viable alternatives. With the fixation that everyone has with Microsoft, many other companies that may be just as bad, or far worse, are flying under the radar.

    Cheers

    Ray
    Yes, they are worse. The point of setting up a trust is to make sure that customers who need a product or service cannot avoid doing business with the trust. They either have a monopoly or have control over all the major competitors so everyone has to come to them.

    Example: Suppose you wanted to buy a Intel CPU based PC without an operating system, with the goal of installing a Linux distribution. Back in the 1990's you'd go to major PC vendors and they'd all tell you the same thing--- you must buy the PC with Windows installed. There was no non-Windows option. Thus the term "Windows tax" was coined to reflect the fact that you paid Microsoft whether you used Windows or not. If you were hardcore, meaning you built the PC yourself (or paid a smaller company to build it for you, more expensively), you could avoid the tax. In case someone thinks I'm making this up, I'll quote from U.S. v. Microsoft findings of fact:

    Price Restraint Posed by Piracy

    58. Although there is no legal secondary market for Microsoft's PC operating systems, there is a thriving illegal one. Software pirates illegally copy software products such as Windows, selling each copy for a fraction of the vendor's usual price. One of the ways Microsoft combats piracy is by advising OEMs that they will be charged a higher price for Windows unless they drastically limit the number of PCs that they sell without an operating system pre-installed. In 1998, all major OEMs agreed to this restriction. Naturally, it is hard to sell a pirated copy of Windows to a consumer who has already received a legal copy included in the price of his new PC system. Thus, Microsoft is able to effectively contain, if not extinguish, the illegal secondary market for its operating-system products. So even though Microsoft is more concerned about piracy than it is about other firms' operating system products, the company's pricing is not substantially constrained by the need to reduce the incentives for consumers to acquire their copies of Windows illegally.

    This is worse than just building shoddy products. This is making sure you pay for the shoddy even if you decide to use something better.

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    Default Re: Everyone hates Microsoft...

    Quote Originally Posted by OzRay View Post
    Why the fixation with Microsoft? The thing is, you can chose whether you engage with Microsoft, but you don't have that choice with many other entities for which there are no other alternatives, or viable alternatives.
    I think the concern of some people is that they may not be able to choose whether they engage with Microsoft. For example, a particular photographer shoots for stock agencies, or a publisher. The agency (and/or publisher) dictates that all submissions must now be in JPEG XR format. If JPEG XR is strictly the domain of Windows, or the licensing is onerous, then that photographer may not be able to avoid engagement with Microsoft in order to maintain their livelihood.

    The existing formats in wide usage (JPG and TIFF) can be utilized and manipulated regardless of operating system or platform. It is certainly possible that JPEG XR would be restrictive in that sense.

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    Default Re: Everyone hates Microsoft...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle Jones View Post
    Yes, they are worse. The point of setting up a trust is to make sure that customers who need a product or service cannot avoid doing business with the trust. They either have a monopoly or have control over all the major competitors so everyone has to come to them.

    Example: Suppose you wanted to buy a Intel CPU based PC without an operating system, with the goal of installing a Linux distribution. Back in the 1990's you'd go to major PC vendors and they'd all tell you the same thing--- you must buy the PC with Windows installed. There was no non-Windows option. Thus the term "Windows tax" was coined to reflect the fact that you paid Microsoft whether you used Windows or not. If you were hardcore, meaning you built the PC yourself (or paid a smaller company to build it for you, more expensively), you could avoid the tax. In case someone thinks I'm making this up, I'll quote from U.S. v. Microsoft findings of fact:
    [I]
    The only computers that I've ever bought that have had the OS already installed were my laptops. I've never bought a 'name' brand PC because their prices are complete rip offs for what you get. We have such a selection of computer stores that build to order and at very reasonable prices, that's it's only the uninitiated that by brand names, or governments/corporations.

    In the early years it perhaps wasn't so easy, but nowadays it's a completely different story. The other thing I read recently was that even though retailers are offering Linux with new PCs instead of Windows, nobody wants to buy them in that configuration.

    But that aside, Microsoft products are such a miniscule fraction of my cost of living and affect me so insignificantly, that I really don't care about these ongoing Microsoft wars. Personally, I believe that if Microsoft hadn't come onto the scene, we'd still have a significantly fragmented computing experience, like it was in the 80s, as everyone fought for their particular 'standard'.

    I agree that their products aren't always the best, but then I've never come across any product that is perfect or anywhere near perfect.

    Cheers

    Ray

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    Default Re: Everyone hates Microsoft...

    Quote Originally Posted by ardklg View Post
    I think the concern of some people is that they may not be able to choose whether they engage with Microsoft. For example, a particular photographer shoots for stock agencies, or a publisher. The agency (and/or publisher) dictates that all submissions must now be in JPEG XR format. If JPEG XR is strictly the domain of Windows, or the licensing is onerous, then that photographer may not be able to avoid engagement with Microsoft in order to maintain their livelihood.

    The existing formats in wide usage (JPG and TIFF) can be utilized and manipulated regardless of operating system or platform. It is certainly possible that JPEG XR would be restrictive in that sense.
    If JPG XR become an industry standard, then that's what you use, just like JPG. A much bigger problem for a lot of photographers is that agencies etc are increasingly demanding that submitted files are of a particular size, meaning that photographers need ever more expensive cameras 'in order to maintain their livelihood'. Which would you prefer?

    Cheers

    Ray

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    Default Re: Everyone hates Microsoft...

    Quote Originally Posted by OzRay View Post
    If JPG XR become an industry standard, then that's what you use, just like JPG. A much bigger problem for a lot of photographers is that agencies etc are increasingly demanding that submitted files are of a particular size, meaning that photographers need ever more expensive cameras 'in order to maintain their livelihood'. Which would you prefer?
    Pretty simple. I make my money off prints and don't deal with agencies so agency megapixel size requirements are completely irrelevant to me and the vast majority of photographers. I can't avoid Microsoft and to me that *is* a problem.

    Corey
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    Default Re: Everyone hates Microsoft...

    Quote Originally Posted by cantikfotos View Post
    Pretty simple. I make my money off prints and don't deal with agencies so agency megapixel size requirements are completely irrelevant to me and the vast majority of photographers. I can't avoid Microsoft and to me that *is* a problem.

    Corey
    But you have the option of using Mac or Linux.

    Cheers

    Ray

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    Default Re: Everyone hates Microsoft...

    Quote Originally Posted by OzRay View Post
    But you have the option of using Mac or Linux.

    Cheers

    Ray
    Not always, a lot of software is only supported on the MS operating system - a case in point would be Olympus which as far as I'm aware requires Windows to update the firmware on the camera. Even at a lower level, I've had difficulty getting a notebook with the Broadcom based network card and ATI graphics card working due to poor or non-existant Linux support - in the end I gave up as I simply couldn't be bothered wasting any more time trying to get 3D hardware acceleration working.

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