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Thread: Grass is not always greener on the other side

  1. #26
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    Default Re: Still testing the different pastures

    Quote Originally Posted by darkesha View Post
    ^^^ Its hard to believe what you were able to get with that combo can be thrumped by any other gear.
    It was mostly Olympus's financial situation and unknown future that made me sell my Oly gear. No point of having 15 grand worth of gear if it won't be supported anymore!
    Charles

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    Default Re: Still testing the different pastures

    Quote Originally Posted by Lowa2 View Post
    The grass is greener for me even since I moved over to Canon. There are things I miss though.

    a) This site, especially the people.
    b) The price. Even when I had the E5 and 300/2.8 Zuiko, the price for Olympus stuff is dirt cheap to get something similar in Canon
    c) The people on this site.
    d) Sharp corners. The zuiko lenses being telecentric have far better corners than even some of the best FF glass.

    I am still happy with the move, but I am curious to see what Olympus brings out (if ever) to replace the E5.
    Your E5 is still going strong, it has taken some great shots.
    McGoo Photography
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    Default Re: Still testing the different pastures

    Quote Originally Posted by olympuse620 View Post
    Your E5 is still going strong, it has taken some great shots.
    That's great to hear :-) No doubt on the IQ, it was my favorite Oly body.

    One thing I forgot to mention about the "other guys". I've had more failures with the Canon stuff than I did with Olympus so KUDOS to Oly for that!
    Charles

    Canon cool aid, but soft spot for Oly :-D

  4. #29
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    Default Re: Still testing the different pastures

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Bradley View Post
    "I'm sorry, but there isn't a need to shoot availalbe light at ISO 6400."
    Can't agree with that at all. If I could I would shoot 6400 a LOT to get the shutter speeds up where I need them with 600-1200mm lenses. 3200 on my D7000 is as far as I want to push it, and even that is dodgy. Still, compared to my E-30 it is a big step up.
    What did you do when film was pushed at ISO 800? Were you making usable images? I will concede that shooting long, small aperture zooms may be the exception as I've only had the occasion to do that once in my forty year career and that was doing long-distance surveillance in daylight. But even then, I was only shooting film at ISO 800.

    Quote Originally Posted by tomsi42 View Post
    Try telling that to anyone who shoots concerts in poorly lit venues ...
    Ok guys... I've been shooting professionally since 1974. I've shot concerts (rock, folk, and classical) in a variety of venues over the years. I've also shot weddings for years. I've shot performances in poorly lit high school gymnasiums. I've shot basketball in poorly lit field houses. I've shot in the dimly lit tail of a P3C using a Mamiya C330 and a 100w trouble light to highlight corrosion. I've shot with everything from 4x5 Speed Graphics to my E3/E5 and now back to my Leica Ms (both digi and film.) I've never once can recall having a need for shooting anything over ISO 800. There may have been a time or two I shot at ISO 1600, but I can't remember what they would have been. I've wished for ISO 6400 a time or two, but I've always come back with the shots. Sometimes you alter the way you shoot. Sometimes you use a monopod, sand bag or other stabilization. Sometimes you alter WHAT you shoot... but it's always possible to come back with the shots...

    oh, but i will confess that the one thing I've always found indispensable is having at least one prime with a max aperture of at least f/1.4 in my bag. If you have that, you're golden. If you don't, you should have one. Shooting in dim venues with a small-aperture zoom is trying at best and next to impossible at worst. I now have 4 primes in my bag that have max apertures of f/1.8 down to f/1.1; two of the others are f/2 and the 135 is an f/2.8. You need to equip yourself properly for the job.

    I reiterate, no one needs ISO 6400 to make good available light images. You might wish for it, but you don't need it.
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  5. #30
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    Default Re: Still testing the different pastures

    Quote Originally Posted by roger h View Post
    I reiterate, no one needs ISO 6400 to make good available light images. You might wish for it, but you don't need it.
    Maybe you don't; but I have been to concerts where you end up with a shutter-speed of 1/15s at ISO 1600 and f/2. I find that the DOF at f/1.4 is often too shallow; even f/2 is questionable. These are very small venues with very poor lighting (typically local blues clubs).

    I also find that saying that you don't need ISO 6400 is short-sighted. Just becuase you can do without; it doesn't mean other's don't. Also, ISO 6400 and above is an enabler; it allows you to take shots you would have passed earlier.
    flickr | "God made the integers; all else is the work of man" - Leopold Kronecker

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    Default Re: Still testing the different pastures

    I have been working on time lapse images of stars at 6400ISO so yes I greatly appreciated almost noise free images at that high of an ISO. There are few cameras on the market that can handle something like that without hours of post work.


    Quote Originally Posted by tomsi42 View Post
    Maybe you don't; but I have been to concerts where you end up with a shutter-speed of 1/15s at ISO 1600 and f/2. I find that the DOF at f/1.4 is often too shallow; even f/2 is questionable. These are very small venues with very poor lighting (typically local blues clubs).

    I also find that saying that you don't need ISO 6400 is short-sighted. Just becuase you can do without; it doesn't mean other's don't. Also, ISO 6400 and above is an enabler; it allows you to take shots you would have passed earlier.


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    Default Re: Still testing the different pastures

    Quote Originally Posted by tomsi42 View Post
    Maybe you don't; but I have been to concerts where you end up with a shutter-speed of 1/15s at ISO 1600 and f/2. I find that the DOF at f/1.4 is often too shallow; even f/2 is questionable. These are very small venues with very poor lighting (typically local blues clubs).

    I also find that saying that you don't need ISO 6400 is short-sighted. Just becuase you can do without; it doesn't mean other's don't. Also, ISO 6400 and above is an enabler; it allows you to take shots you would have passed earlier.
    Again, Tom, I'm not saying it would be desirable. Greg's timelapse videos are amazing. Birding with a 1200mm lens has got to be a challenge, and I certainly understand the challenges you're facing in shooting blues venues as I've worked those places too.

    All three of you are pushing the limits of the technology and Greg and Daniel are doing things that wasn't even possible with over-the-counter consumer equipment even just a few years ago. What Greg is doing was in the realm of equipment like the $60,000 Hulcher sequence cameras (ok, not Hulcher specifically as they were high-speed, but special intervalometer equipment.) What Daniel is doing was in the realm of NatGeo photographers who set up a dozen cameras with motion triggers on an eagle's nest and hoped that when the came back they had awesome stuff. And yes, there will be 'clean' ISO 10,000 some day I'm sure. And there will be a steady technology improvements along the way. But even ISO 3200 is a huge improvement over the Leicaflex-pushed Tri-X days, and the fact that you're already doing what you are doing is amazing. And you ARE making the equipment work for you, all three of you.

    I really appreciated being able to push Tri-X to 800 as I remember when Tri-X was ASA 320 natively and didn't push very well. The leap to the ISO 400 emulsion was huge. We grumbled about shooting at 1/15th wide open with (in those days) ASA 800, but the fact is you always came back with the images. It wasn't easy... it took skill, imagination, and determination and we worked hard to do it, but you had images to sell. Think how ecstatic you would have been back then to even be able to shoot recognizable images at ASA 1600! And here we are with usable 3200 and in the case of the D800 not only usable, but actually amazing images at ISO 6400... and we still want more. You guys are all amazing photographers and you're not giving yourselves enough credit for how good your work is now. Yes, ISO 6400 and higher would be nice, but all of you are proving that it's NOT necessary, just like we proved in the "old days" that shooting at 1600 wasn't "necessary." If you've got it, use it. If you don't, make do with what you've got for now. What you're after will be available eventually. Just keep shooting in the mean time!
    Last edited by roger h; 03-21-2013 at 04:43 PM.
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    Default Re: Still testing the different pastures

    Quote Originally Posted by roger h View Post
    Just keep shooting in the mean time!
    Yes, that's the important bit

    Usually, I am fine with ISO below 800, but when I need more, I usually need a lot more; for me, around ISO 6400 is the "sweet spot". Other people need more; a few a lot more: I listened to an Israel photographer who had tested a pre-production Canon 1DX; and he was very happy that the camera support very high ISO (51200 and above!) as he needed that on a some of assignments (night patrols with the army).

    I tried the Canon 6D, and the files it delivered at ISO 12,800 was very nice; so one can say that 'clean' ISO 10,000 is already here

    After all, there is more to photography than high ISO; but since that is the E-30 (and E-5) Achilles' heel; that's what we tend to moan about.
    flickr | "God made the integers; all else is the work of man" - Leopold Kronecker

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    Default Re: Still testing the different pastures

    I think your post about what you can manage with is a little nostalgic Roger.

    I to am from that era, and I also remember the first few years driving lorries with no syncromesh and having to double the clutch and even for a while after that no Syncromesh on first gear and also no power steering, we did not need syncronised gears or power steering but it sure made the job easier, and now we cannot live without them, cameras are no different, its fun to drive a old car but you do not want to do it all the while.
    Regards Paul
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    Default Re: Still testing the different pastures

    Since I got the Fuji X100, I don't think I've ever shot a picture below ISO1600. I usually shoot f/2 or f/2.8. I use it as an everyday camera so there is no need to print big or whatnot, so slight smearing/noise that coems with ISO3200 doesn't matter to me.

    In bad light, it lets you capture pictures you would never get. In good light, it lets you avoid motion blur.

    Its fantastic. Picking up a 4/3 DSLR after that was like picking up an antique. So I sold it all, and my OM-D is currently in the mail. My only m4/3 lens for now is an f/4 - f/5.6, but I don't care, because f/2.8 @ ISO 400 = f/5.6 @ ISO 1600.
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  11. #36
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    Default Re: Still testing the different pastures

    Quote Originally Posted by Craftysnapper View Post
    I think your post about what you can manage with is a little nostalgic Roger
    No, nostalgia has never been something I indulge in much. My first "car" was a twenty-year-old 1950 Ford F1 with a granny first and no synchros. I loved my FJ-40 LandCruisers, but my FJ Cruiser has a much smoother gearbox, A/C, power steering and rides like a car. Even my FJ-60 LandCruisers are crude by comparison. We drove those vehicles without synchro because we had to, but we got the job done anyway. My whole point wasn't that I enjoyed fighting to get those images; it was that we found ways to do it because it was what we had to work with. There's always something better, faster, bigger, better out there in the store or on the horizon, but the photo that's in front of us is the one that needs to be made, and you have to figure out how to make it with the gear you have in your hand at that moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Bradley View Post
    It also raises the question of where the border line is between need and want. What do we really need? I don't NEED a camera at all, nor a car, nor a computer, nor the internet....
    Ah yes....the double clutch days! Sorry to say, I remember them well. Not that it bothered me, just shows how old I am....
    Daniel, you raise a good point. My definition would be that we need the tools that will allow us to accomplish the task at hand, but we want better tools to make it easier or faster, or allows us to do the job "better".

    Quote Originally Posted by tomsi42 View Post
    Yes, that's the important bit

    After all, there is more to photography than high ISO; but since that is the E-30 (and E-5) Achilles' heel; that's what we tend to moan about.
    And I think you're right, Tom!
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    Default Re: Still testing the different pastures

    Roger I'm sure you saw the winking face and realise it was tongue in cheek.

    But you raise good point and by the same auto definition some people have landcruisers just to use to use them for going down the block to the local store, a bit like cameras, not what you need but what you want just in case.
    Regards Paul
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    Default Re: Still testing the different pastures

    Hey Marin, after trying greenery of other side(s) what do you think of new E-7 with SHG lenses and OMD sensor compared to other wedding tools (5Dii/D6/800) ?
    Let's say E-5 body with OVF and OMD sensor and HG/SHG glass during one demanding or challenging wedding reception ?

    I am debating of trying FF - mostly 6D since it looks like its the best all around FF that doesn't break the bank (or 5Dii used) but am not planning on ditching Olympus. I still love what E-5 can do, and I don't run into it's limits (and istock inspectors are agreeing with me lately) too often.
    I do, on the other hand, want to try the FF magic what everyone is talking about, the DR it has and better high ISO capabilities.
    So what's your perspective on how E-7 would stand against these new breed FF bodies ?
    Cameras:E-5; E-3; E-1; E-620; GH-1
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    Default Re: Still testing the different pastures

    Quote Originally Posted by darkesha View Post
    So what's your perspective on how E-7 would stand against these new breed FF bodies ?
    Did not know the E-7 was already out... ;-) (just kidding)

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    Default Re: Still testing the different pastures

    I would love good ISO6400 for what I do, big bug photography. But, I don't have it so I do other things to make up for it...

    - ALWAYS shoot on a tripod, even when using flash.
    - Go on my bug hunts in good light and calm days. No sense fighting wind at ANY ISO.
    - Go out early or later, avoid the heat of the day and therefore the most skittish bugs.
    - Wear muted colors. Dragonflies are much less skittish, and therefore more still when you're not wearing fluorescent green

    I can shoot good bug pics with an E-1 at base ISO (ISO100, f8, 1/100, 50-200 at 200, uncropped, no PP, straight OOC):



    Link to full size: http://keithhatfull.smugmug.com/Othe...O/P7070264.jpg

    I prefer to PP outside the camera so I'm pretty tame with in-camera JPEG settings.

    The E-5 works even better for me and I'll shoot it at ISO400 is I need to, but I rarely venture above.

    Yes, I alter my shooting style and method to account for the lack of ISO performance but it should NOT prevent me from getting good shots. If anything limits me it's me.

    Remember, I must believe this wholeheartedly, coming back to Oly from a arguably "better" camera, a Pentax K-5.
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    Default Re: Still testing the different pastures

    which proves again it's not about gear.
    if it was, then E-1 should be only good for garbage considering it has the worst, smallest and oldest sensor of all dslrs.
    Cameras:E-5; E-3; E-1; E-620; GH-1
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    Default Re: Still testing the different pastures

    Quote Originally Posted by darkesha View Post
    which proves again it's not about gear.
    if it was, then E-1 should be only good for garbage considering it has the worst, smallest and oldest sensor of all dslrs.
    I think the truth is somewhere in-between. Yes in dynamic range, but there is something about the older 10mp sensors. I prefer the image quality from my 1DIII, which would have been designed about the same time as the E-1 sensor, compared with what I get from the 16mp Sony sensor (G5). The later sensor produces harsher, more technical images.
    Cheers,
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    Default Re: Still testing the different pastures

    If you want to talk about what is "good enough" then this is a neverending spiral to the bottom.

    I have taken over 10,000 pictures with the E-410 + 70-300mm lens combo, and some of these are pretty damn good. So why are you using the 50-200mm lens instead of a 70-300mm? You clearly don't need it.

    In fact, I'll top that one too. Here's a picture with the E-410 and the 40-150mm kit lens.



    Here's the full size image: http://www.aroundtheworld.org/pictures/P8060093.JPG

    This is a straight OOC JPEG with no post-processing. Is that razor sharp or what?

    Why don't we all just hang around with an E-410 and kit lenses? Sure is hell of a bang for your buck.

    How much light the sensor gathers depends on ISO, aperture and shutter speed. Ability to use high ISO is super useful. Just like f/2.8 lenses are super useful. Even if you can get a sharp picture on a by today's standards pretty shitty 10 year old camera.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Default Re: Still testing the different pastures

    Ya, I agree better and newer things are useful.
    That's why I have E-5 and 50-200, and use them on
    important assignment exclusively.

    But there is some certain magic when I take E-1 with 40-150 mk1 and go out with kids and come back with this album two years after.
    It's character I guess, and maybe fact I know it's done with dinosaur which should be in museum.

    That's why I can't wait to fire up my first roll of film in my never used OM-1 I got because of 50 1.8 lens.
    Cameras:E-5; E-3; E-1; E-620; GH-1
    Lens: 12-60mm 50mm f/2; 50-200swd; Ex-25; 70-300; 40-150mkI; 35mm f/3.5; 25mm f/2.8; 14-140 u43
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    Default Re: Still testing the different pastures

    I shoot an E-3 mostly with the 12-60 and 50-200. Often i'll use the EC-14. I've lugged this around most of North America and a good chunk of Australia and I have never regretted having this setup, with the exception of a few times in Yellowstone when I wished I had the EC-20 as well. I've been through rain, snow, dust, extremes of heat and cold and almost 100k shots later I am still clicking happily. I've played with other systems (not mine, friends) that cover a wide range of Canikon but have never been tempted to buy in. The affordable glass is crap compared to Oly, and the good stuff is way too expensive. I liked the 5DIII with L glass, great setup, but a massive cost.

    The next camera I buy will be either an E5 or its successor. I don't really care that much about whether in 5 or 10 years Oly won't be making 4/3 bodies any more, the kit I have will well and truly have paid for itself over the years. Do I occasionally wish for more ISO? Yes. But really the camera has never stopped me from getting a shot, most of the time it is all on me and my lack of skills that I mess things up.

    Here's some pics from my recent honeymoon trip around the US National Parks, all with E3 and HG glass. All shot as JPEGs (another reason I love Olympus). I printed some of these up to about 20" and they looked, to my eye, fabulous.

    https://plus.google.com/photos/10457...961?banner=pwa
    E3 with grip, 12-60, 50-200 SWD, 50 macro, Sigma 30 f1.4, EC-14, Ex-25.

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    Default Re: Grass is not always greener on the other side

    For the first time digital cameras have been around Olympus was recognized as having one of the best cameras on the market, the EM-5, but that doesn't seem to be celebrated here much.

    When the EM-5 was selected as one of the best cameras on the market it was the D800 that led that competition, there must be a reason for that. What has been described of D800 weakness in this thread is way off from my experience, in most cases totally contradictory.

    I have met several people where the camera was just to complicated and way past their skill set to use. Comments like " even had enough time to try to use focus micro adjust" suggest one has a lack of understanding about the camera. As with any tool, it really helps to learn how to effectively use it!

    I shoot with the D800 and it is the best camera I have ever shot with. It easily surpasses the EM-5 with lenses that were out a year ago and the E5 even with SHG lenses.

    But I do desire a highly capable small camera and lenses . So since Olympus and Panasonic have produced some excellent lenses for m4/3 a while ago I thought I'd check out the forum and see if it might be time to get an EM-5 and with some of the new fast primes or the two new f/2.8 Panasonics zooms.

    But now I've learned that I really don't need any of this stuff. Guess I'll just join Edmunds and pull out my E-410 with kit lenses.
    Clint
    OM-D EM-1 | 7-14mm | 12-40mm | 12-60mm | 35-100mm | 50-200mm | 100-400mm | 12mm | 25mm f/1.4 | 45mm f/1.8 | 75mm f/1.8 | FL-600R | FL-50R |

    Shooting since 1964

  22. #47
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    Default Re: Still testing the different pastures

    Quote Originally Posted by roger h View Post
    Again, Tom, I'm not saying it would be desirable. Greg's timelapse videos are amazing. Birding with a 1200mm lens has got to be a challenge, and I certainly understand the challenges you're facing in shooting blues venues as I've worked those places too.

    All three of you are pushing the limits of the technology and Greg and Daniel are doing things that wasn't even possible with over-the-counter consumer equipment even just a few years ago. What Greg is doing was in the realm of equipment like the $60,000 Hulcher sequence cameras (ok, not Hulcher specifically as they were high-speed, but special intervalometer equipment.) What Daniel is doing was in the realm of NatGeo photographers who set up a dozen cameras with motion triggers on an eagle's nest and hoped that when the came back they had awesome stuff. And yes, there will be 'clean' ISO 10,000 some day I'm sure. And there will be a steady technology improvements along the way. But even ISO 3200 is a huge improvement over the Leicaflex-pushed Tri-X days, and the fact that you're already doing what you are doing is amazing. And you ARE making the equipment work for you, all three of you.

    I really appreciated being able to push Tri-X to 800 as I remember when Tri-X was ASA 320 natively and didn't push very well. The leap to the ISO 400 emulsion was huge. We grumbled about shooting at 1/15th wide open with (in those days) ASA 800, but the fact is you always came back with the images. It wasn't easy... it took skill, imagination, and determination and we worked hard to do it, but you had images to sell. Think how ecstatic you would have been back then to even be able to shoot recognizable images at ASA 1600! And here we are with usable 3200 and in the case of the D800 not only usable, but actually amazing images at ISO 6400... and we still want more. You guys are all amazing photographers and you're not giving yourselves enough credit for how good your work is now. Yes, ISO 6400 and higher would be nice, but all of you are proving that it's NOT necessary, just like we proved in the "old days" that shooting at 1600 wasn't "necessary." If you've got it, use it. If you don't, make do with what you've got for now. What you're after will be available eventually. Just keep shooting in the mean time!
    Thanks Roger for the kind words. I might also mention the dynamic range of the new line of full frames is off the map good. There isn't a cropped sensor on the market that can touch it. Dynamic range is one of those things not mentioned much because you can't judge a camera with and Internet post like with noise. But the E5 is a much better performing camera than the D800. Olympus focusing systems are far superior.


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    Default Re: Still testing the different pastures

    Can you elaborate that about focusing? I always tjought Oly sucks in focusing in everything but one special circustamce: great light, middle point, high contrast target and SWD lens.
    Everything else, i thought Nikon is the king.
    Cameras:E-5; E-3; E-1; E-620; GH-1
    Lens: 12-60mm 50mm f/2; 50-200swd; Ex-25; 70-300; 40-150mkI; 35mm f/3.5; 25mm f/2.8; 14-140 u43
    Lights: Fl36Rx2; Fl50R; FL50; Elinchrom 2x400ws radio controlled.

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  24. #49
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    Default Re: Still testing the different pastures

    Quote Originally Posted by darkesha View Post
    Can you elaborate that about focusing? I always tjought Oly sucks in focusing in everything but one special circustamce: great light, middle point, high contrast target and SWD lens.
    Everything else, i thought Nikon is the king.
    I did not have any beefs with the E-5 focusing, nor do I with the D800E focusing, but I do not tax autofocus. I will say that Oly is ahead of Canon and Nikon in allowing AF tuning of each focusing point individually (Canikon allow only a global adjustment), and Nikon allows only one adjustment for a zoom lens (as opposed to Oly and Canon that allow adjustments to be made at two points on the zoom range). To my mind, anything less than what Oly offers is just pathetic - we are talking about writing lines of code here, not some giant technical leap.
    ODM
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    E-10, E-M5, 20mm, PZ 14-42mm

  25. #50
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    Default Re: Still testing the different pastures

    Quote Originally Posted by cosmonaut View Post
    Thanks Roger for the kind words. I might also mention the dynamic range of the new line of full frames is off the map good. There isn't a cropped sensor on the market that can touch it. Dynamic range is one of those things not mentioned much because you can't judge a camera with and Internet post like with noise. But the E5 is a much better performing camera than the D800. Olympus focusing systems are far superior.
    Olympus has better focusing? That's hilarious.

    I have had the E1, E3, E5, now have 5d2, 7d, 1d2n, and had a 1d3 and they are ALL superior to the e5 in terms of AF accuracy, especially in the c-AF category. No questions asked. Yes, perhaps you can't tune every point of AF like the e5, but none of my canon lenses need MA.

    Not bashing Olympus here, just stating my experiences with Canon.
    Charles

    Canon cool aid, but soft spot for Oly :-D

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