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Thread: "One Beautiful System" coming in September

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    Default "One Beautiful System" coming in September

    Well, here we are.

    I'm not sure why no one has jumped on this yet on fourthirdsphoto, so I'll do the honours of posting today's FT5 rumour (aka almost a certainty):

    (FT5) New High End OMD is also the E-5 successor (hybrid MFT and FT mount). | 43 Rumors

    I think I can live with an EVF as long as it is a good as the new VF4 clip-on, AND it focuses my SHGs at least as well as my E-5. Looking forward to the killer IBIS and increased frame rate, as well as undoubtedly a few more megapixels. I might even be an early adopter for once.

    Leigh
    zippski

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    Default Re: "One Beautiful System" coming in September

    I don't know about being an early adopter if they come up with a hybrid mount. I think I will wait awhile to see how it actually pans out. I doubt that we will see much of an increase in megapixels and even if they do try to cram more on to the FT sensor I would wait to see some reviews before I run out to buy it. I think I will use the wait and see approach on this one.

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    Default Re: "One Beautiful System" coming in September

    I surely hope it will be competitively priced = cheaper.
    E-5 was really expensive for what it was....new D90 in D7000/60D era but priced way more then all of them.
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    Default Re: "One Beautiful System" coming in September

    Have to wait and see. If it's a m4/3 with some sort of adapter, I can do that today no need to wait. I need to see how they are going to handle PDAF as well. Not saying that I wouldn't buy one, but I'll need some convincing.
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    Default Re: "One Beautiful System" coming in September

    Sigh . . . too late for me.
    Old enough to know better, young enough not to care.
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    Default Re: "One Beautiful System" coming in September

    Just give me an E-M5 with the E-5's armor, weather sealing, and articulated screen - that works well with my 4/3rds glass? Hell yeah. I'm onboard for that.

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    Default Re: "One Beautiful System" coming in September

    Time moves on. The E-M5 shows me I can live with an EVF, so if FrankenKamera is part E-5, part E-M5 and has next-generation chip and engine, then bring it. Yesterday.

    Cheers,

    Rick

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    Default Re: "One Beautiful System" coming in September

    Quote Originally Posted by jnicklin View Post
    Have to wait and see. If it's a m4/3 with some sort of adapter, I can do that today no need to wait. I need to see how they are going to handle PDAF as well. Not saying that I wouldn't buy one, but I'll need some convincing.
    thats a fair position
    this is a camera in between formats
    but b/se of its hardware fit, basically it just has to be more m43rds than SLR
    is that a bad thing?
    the rest here is speculative

    pdAF is likely from Sony's new Exmor sensor, theyre about to do this for the A mount cameras so the SLT is gone
    (SR3) Some A-mount camera news in September? | sonyalpharumors
    despite all the mechanical wrangling people like me went into, at the end of the day this is the most elegant (and cheapest ) solution

    he didnt have the description quite perfect but somebody speculated that it will use a reversible adapter, anyone know who JimD might be?
    that is to say it always uses an adapter whether its in 43rds config or m43rds config

    the benefit I can think of it is a larger more solid component than MMF-x adapters, so you could run a 2x with heavy lenses and the like
    and the camera cannot really be described as either m43rds or 43rds, its ideally both. The beauty of it to me is you dont have to step out of the door ensuring you remembered to bring your MMF-x adapter with you, its already on the camera

    converting from m43rds to 43rds in operation you would remove the lens, remove the adapter and turn it around
    put the adapter back onto the camera and lock it on, replace the lens with a 43rds lens

    ok so back to reality, however theyve done it the hardware bit is conquered
    still to be reconciled, what about the EVF and the AF performance

    the EVF is just bound to be the new Epson, which seems to be quite good and is larger than we are used to
    I think that, especially if you are into slow methodical shooting in MF it will be more precise
    if its better than my GH2 EVF, after awhile it just becomes a non issue for the mostpart
    so much so I sometimes peer into the EVF without having turned the system on!
    battery loads will be higher, so less frames per charge, more dependence on additional batteries, better battery conservation rituals

    that leaves pdAF which is on sensor
    as we all know this is a bit different
    I think that for any of us who use AF in mostly fairly static circumstances it will be faster and better in so many ways
    the only time you need to correct the index of a lens is when a lens is off or damaged, it should be more reliable with a higher hit rate and actually have better low light performance than the SLRs. I know my GH2 can get good locks in very dark circumstances, and the potential is even better performance on newer gear.

    that leaves CAF mode, and this is where the worry is
    initially people are already going to feel they are fighting understanding the EVF anyway, conquering both at once might be frustrating. Yet it has to be said there are people who have been able to sort out their CAF on OMD quite successfully with m43rds lenses

    Im not trying to talk it up or down; I guess ultimately what we are talking about is CAF with 43rds lenses, just how good or how bad will it be

    myself, I have always been cr4p with CAF anyway, and I know the problem is how I have handled it
    Ive seen imagery using CAF on E5 and its has been well executed with around a 75% hit rate which compares well with recent studies Ive seen on 6D and D600 CAF. Personally mine was nowhere near that. So I think even if it really does suck, Im already trained not to miss it
    Riley

    Olympus User, Pro Photographer since 2003

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    Default Re: "One Beautiful System" coming in September

    Quote Originally Posted by Riley View Post
    I guess ultimately what we are talking about is CAF with 43rds lenses, just how good or how bad will it be.
    I've gotten to the point now where I use the LCD for shooting (instead of the viewfinder) on my E-5 about 80% of the time, so I'm already shooting 4/3rds glass in CDAF mode far more often than PDAF. If it's very dark or you've got a fast-moving subject, PDAF still has the edge, but not by much - and that's on the E-5, which is getting a little long in the tooth now. I don't have any problem believing that CDAF will have surpassed PDAF in every respect with this new one.

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    Default Re: "One Beautiful System" coming in September

    And now Olympus has to compete with things like this in the mirrorless market. FEATURES | GALAXY NX

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    Default Re: "One Beautiful System" coming in September

    It would seem with a hybrid mount either 4/3 or m4/3 is going to be the 'step child.' The camera will be primarily set for one or the other. I've always been a fan of Olympus, especially their innovation, and quality. So, I'm not passing judgement at all at this stage. I just hope it.....rises to the occasion.
    Last edited by laingjd; 08-06-2013 at 05:33 PM.
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    Default Re: "One Beautiful System" coming in September

    Quote Originally Posted by kenwae View Post
    It would seem with a hybrid mount either 4/3 or m4/3 is going to be the 'step child.' The camera will be primarily set for one or the other. I've always been a fan of Olympus, especially their innovation, and quality. So, I'm not passing judgement at all at this stage. I just hope it.....rises to the occasion.
    Sorry, but I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. Are you saying that if I'm using a 4/3 lens and switch to a m4/3 lens I'm going to have to change a bunch of settings before I can resume shooting? Or even just switch to a set of saved settings?
    Last edited by laingjd; 08-06-2013 at 07:34 PM.
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    Default Re: "One Beautiful System" coming in September

    I don't really know. It just seems that the camera body would be natively set for either 4/3 or m4/3 lenses and we'd have to do some kind of adjustment to use one or the other.
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    Default Re: "One Beautiful System" coming in September

    But isn't a lens basically just a way to focus the light? It seems to me the only factors are getting things lined up so the light hits the focal plane correctly and then to make sure the electronic features are fully powered/integrated. The only adapter I ever used connected my 90-210 Vivitar to my OM-10 and I don't remember changing anything when I switched from it to an Olympus lens. Of course, that was before digital, but I'm not sure that should make a difference. I just assume flipping the ring will simply adjust the distance to the focal plane and connect the electronics. I'm still in the market for a 2nd body and this might be a way to continue using my current 4/3 lenses while giving me access to the m4/3 roster in something akin to the E-5 without the price tag. Amazon is still listing the E-5 at $1,700 and I'm just nit going to pay that now.
    Cheers, Dave

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    Default Re: "One Beautiful System" coming in September

    I guess my E-300 will soldier on a little longer; this isn't the body I've been waiting for.
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    Default Re: "Two Beautiful Systems" coming in September

    Riley already knows how I feel about the new camera that is reportedly going to be released in Spetember. I dissagree about whether it will be a m4/3 or a 4/3 DSLR and the functional differences between m4/3 and 4/3 bodies. Riley's thoughts have a lot of merit but I don't agree with the notion that m4/3 is the future and will ever replace an SLR with HG and SHG 4/3 lenses.

    The only thing that can be hybrid about a m4/3 and 4/3 body is the focus method. By combining CDAF and PDAF on the sensor or with an additional PDAF sensor they can create a hybrid.

    It's not physically possible and does not seem practical to create one body that will mount both lenses. A m4/3 lens has different set back, or flange to sensor distance than a 4/3 mount. Besides, the MMF-x adapter is just too easy to use.

    Quote Originally Posted by Riley View Post
    ...
    the rest here is speculative

    pdAF is likely from Sony's new Exmor sensor, theyre about to do this for the A mount cameras so the SLT is gone
    (SR3) Some A-mount camera news in September? | sonyalpharumors
    ...
    somebody speculated that it will use a reversible adapter, anyone know who JimD might be?
    that is to say it always uses an adapter whether its in 43rds config or m43rds config

    the benefit I can think of it is a larger more solid component than MMF-x adapters, so you could run a 2x with heavy lenses and the like
    ...
    ..., what about the EVF and the AF performance

    the EVF is just bound to be the new Epson, which seems to be quite good and is larger than we are used to
    ...
    battery loads will be higher, so less frames per charge, more dependence on additional batteries, better battery conservation rituals

    that leaves pdAF which is on sensor
    as we all know this is a bit different
    I think that for any of us who use AF in mostly fairly static circumstances it will be faster and better in so many ways
    the only time you need to correct the index of a lens is when a lens is off or damaged, it should be more reliable with a higher hit rate and actually have better low light performance than the SLRs. I know my GH2 can get good locks in very dark circumstances, and the potential is even better performance on newer gear.

    that leaves CAF mode, and this is where the worry is
    initially people are already going to feel they are fighting understanding the EVF anyway, conquering both at once might be frustrating. Yet it has to be said there are people who have been able to sort out their CAF on OMD quite successfully with m43rds lenses

    Im not trying to talk it up or down; I guess ultimately what we are talking about is CAF with 43rds lenses, just how good or how bad will it be

    myself, I have always been cr4p with CAF anyway, and I know the problem is how I have handled it
    Ive seen imagery using CAF on E5 and its has been well executed with around a 75% hit rate which compares well with recent studies Ive seen on 6D and D600 CAF. Personally mine was nowhere near that. So I think even if it really does suck, Im already trained not to miss it
    The rumored Sony sensor is just that, rumored. At a recent camera store grand opening I not only spoke with the Olympus sales rep for Southwestern US, I also met the Sony rep'. He didn't know anything about the rumored new sensor and admitted that sales rep's are usually the last to know about new releases. So Riley's Sony Exmor PDAF theory is speculation on what the new m4/3 Olympus sensor willl be based on a rumor about what the next Sony sensor will be.

    Yes Riley, who is JimD, besides someone who speculated something that's not practical or physically possible? A reversable adapter does not solve the set-back distance conditions.

    A better option would be a beafy MMF with a collar and tripod mount. Maybe one that links back to the camera tripod mount for rigidity and anchors a larger grip to an OM-D. It's not my idea, I read about the tripod collar idea on another forum today.

    The EVF on the E-P5 looks good to me. I only used it briefly in the camera store. I keep reading posts about how the EVF shows the effects of camera settings, like the LCD does on a P&S, and not the actual scene. An EVF does not replace an OVF. Yet.

    Using the BLM-5 battery from the E-5 makes a lot of sense. It's got more power for longer life and many of us have them already. I'd be dissapointed if Olympus changed the battery system after one generation of DSLRs.

    I could use faster focus occasionally. Most of the time I'm a methodical shooter who composes, checks exposure, focuses and reframes before shooting. So speed is not always the most important thing. But once I have that all dialed in I want my HG and SHG lenses to focus faster than they do now on the E-5. I want to keep using my 50-200 for wildlife and people and have it focus instantly when that moment arrives. CDAF with my best 4/3 lenses is mostly unusable. It's a step backwards, like using a Camedia C-5060 or C-8080.

    I want better CAF too, not worse. I'm just starting to shoot birds in flight and moving subjects with the 50-200 and I'm seeing the need for that to work better than it does now.

    I could go on. But I'm looking for Olympus to continue producing m4/3 bodies while improving on the 4/3 DSLR. If Olympus abandons another set of lenses, the 3rd in 12 to 15 years (OM, 4/3 and m4/3), I'm not going to be investing in another camera/lens format.

    I have faith - there will be at least two camera releases this fall. I believe Olympus will announce a high end m4/3 in Spetember, followed soon after by a new DSLR with a sensor that's at least as good as the one in the OM-D. There's every indication the new m4/3 top end body will cost more than the OM-D, which puts the price point very close to the E-5 when you add an MMF-x adapter and a grip.

    Olympus is running out of stock on E-5 but not on 4/3 lenses. That suggests they are getting ready to release something to replace the E-5 that will continue to support 4/3 lenses. They're intentionally running out of E-5 so they don't have to discount them when the new DSLR comes out.
    Dave in So Cal

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    Default Re: "Two Beautiful Systems" coming in September

    Quote Originally Posted by whaleshark View Post
    I could go on. But I'm looking for Olympus to continue producing m4/3 bodies while improving on the 4/3 DSLR. If Olympus abandons another set of lenses, the 3rd in 12 to 15 years (OM, 4/3 and m4/3), I'm not going to be investing in another camera/lens format.

    I have faith - there will be at least two camera releases this fall. I believe Olympus will announce a high end m4/3 in Spetember, followed soon after by a new DSLR with a sensor that's at least as good as the one in the OM-D. There's every indication the new m4/3 top end body will cost more than the OM-D, which puts the price point very close to the E-5 when you add an MMF-x adapter and a grip.

    Olympus is running out of stock on E-5 but not on 4/3 lenses. That suggests they are getting ready to release something to replace the E-5 that will continue to support 4/3 lenses. They're intentionally running out of E-5 so they don't have to discount them when the new DSLR comes out.
    I hope you're right Dave. I'm looking for a next generation DSLR, not a souped up OMD. Only time will tell.
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    Default Re: "Two Beautiful Systems" coming in September

    Quote Originally Posted by davidh202 View Post
    I'm in full agreement with you Dave!
    Me too.
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    Default Re: "Two Beautiful Systems" coming in September

    Me 3

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    Default Olympus News from Rep, what's new in September

    I posted this on another forum recently, 1022 on dpreview. Riley's seen it and maybe you've seen it too. Over 100 people commented. Not all of them were in agreement about what's coming next from Olympus, just like here on 4/3Photo.

    The Olympus sales rep for the Southwestern US was presenting Olympus's latest offerings at Samy's Camera in Pasadena, CA two weeks ago (So Cal, LA area). They had a grand opening for their new location. They moved from the center of Old Pasadena to a bigger space near Pasadena City College. I've known him since before I bought my first DSLR, the E-3 in 2007. I met him at Olympus sponsored seminars and presentations by Olympus Visionary photographers like John Isaac and Magnum photographer Eli Reed. This time he was promoting the new E-P5 and OMD E-M5 along with all of the micro 4/3 lenses.

    A lens focus speed test: I asked him to bring a 4/3 to m4/3 adapter and I brought in what I thought would be some of the more challenging 4/3 SHG lenses for the E-P5 and E-M5 to focus. I tried the 14-35, the 35-100, the 50-200 mm mkI and the 4/3 Pan/Leica 25 mm f/1.4. In a well-lit room full of high contrast gear with plenty of sharp lines the 14-35 mm f/2 snapped into focus in about twice the time it focuses on my E-5 (maybe 1/4 second?). I did not get to try this lens in a dark room where the 14-35 occassionaly struggles. The 35-100 mm f/2 took a little longer, 3/4 to 1 full second to focus - occasionally faster. The 50-200 mm mkI was abyssmal, as you can imagine - about 2 to 3 seconds or longer. Lots of m4/3 owners have said as much about this lens on m4/3. The Pan/Leica 25 mm f/1.4 was very responsive. The focus speed was better than I expected and very usable for portraits and moving subjects. It was not as fast as it is the E-5, but the difference is very slight for my style of slow, methodical shooting. I didn't time any of these with a stop watch, it's just my estimation of how quickly they focused in comparison to the E-5.
    The rep said his reading indicated the E-P5 would focus the 14-35, 12-60, 50-200 mm mkII and 50 mm f/2 faster than the E-P3. The first 3 are SWD lenses and it would be hard to be slower than the E-P3 with the 50 mm f/2.

    My overall feeling is that neither the Pen E-P5 or the OM-D are good enough for use with my 4/3 HG and SHG lenses. As soon as you mount the lens you're holding it by the lens, not the camera, due to the weight balance. At one point I tried to adjust the electronic viewfinder diopter. I pre-focused on a good location and then tried to continue looking at that spot while I adjusted the diopter to the sharpest image. I found I could not do it because I had to hold the lens and let go of the camera to operate the dial. It was very awkward and in the end I could not adjust it. Maybe with some practice I could, but it pointed out the awkward balance of a large lens on a small camera with a small grip. The E-P5 has no grip option. The WiFi is located in the small grip of the body.

    Focusing with the Pen and OM-D is too slow to be useful with at least two of my best lenses. That excelllent, umatched 50-200 mm lens becomes a slow tube, better used in manual focus. The 35-100 is too slow to use for catching expressions in portraits. I didn't try the 50/2, the 14-54 mm mkI, the 11-22 mm or the other fine HG and SHG lenses I have. WA lenses focus quickly by nature and I didn't think I'd be able to tell the difference. I took in the long zooms, the 14-35 and the Pan/Leica 25/1.4 just to confirm that this excellent lens focuses fast, as we've all heard it does.

    So the news: Olympus will have new releases about the first or second week of September. People here have already stated the timing so that may be old news. Olympus is coming out with a new OM-D upgrade that will be better than the E-M3 and cost more (from the way he said it I heard 'lots more'). There will be new m4/3 lenses released about the same time that will improve on the zooms that are available (not hard to do, IMO). As far as a new release in the DSLR line, he was not sure. He said, "Olympus will tell me/us in a sales meeting around the end of August". We can expect a press release a week or so later. By then we'll probably all start to see photos of what's coming. And it will be official news by September 15th or thereabouts.

    I believe the news of an upcoming release was given to me freely and factually by the Olympus Rep and not as opinion or speculation. He was saying as much as he knew from the corporate horses mouth and not more than he was allowed to reveal. He seemed to know more about the next m4/3 than he was saying, like the price and the types of lenses that were coming.

    Since the E-P5 was just released with almost the same features and functions as the E-M3 I have a hard time imagining the next OM-D will have any big improvements over the E-P5. I told the rep I wasn't interested in using my HG and SHG lenses on a Pen or OM-D sized body. I want the same instantly fast focus I have on the E-5, or better. Also, I have a $1500 minimum invested in an underwater housing that can not be transfered to a new camera, only on my E-330. That UW system also uses 4/3 lenses and uw I need fast focus for fish action. I have the FP-1 flash power grip, SHV-1 battery pack, FL-CB02 and FL-CB05 cables, the Oly cable remote, SRF-11 ring flash and adapter tube, 5 of the FL-50 flash with DIY mono jacks that I installed for off-camera radio triggered flash. The remote flash can be used with any system via radio triggers, but the FL-50 is also useful for any of the 4/3 DSLRs. I told him I'm looking for a new DSLR to be released.

    Mid-September is right around the corner!
    Dave in So Cal

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    Default Re: "Two Beautiful Systems" coming in September

    Quote Originally Posted by whaleshark View Post
    It's not physically possible and does not seem practical to create one body that will mount both lenses. A m4/3 lens has different set back, or flange to sensor distance than a 4/3 mount. Besides, the MMF-x adapter is just too easy to use.
    ok so lets look at that, first revisit the configuration

    its a mirrorless camera with a new mount, neither 43rds or m43rds
    the camera wont work without the adapter because no lens fits the cameras mount, only the adapter does

    so what is it about this adapter
    the shape is basically that of MMF-x, with the addition of a flange mount (A)
    it has a 43rds lens mount (B) on one side and a m43rds lens mount (C) on the other

    because the flange (A) is offset, it accounts for the difference in m43rds and 43rds mount registers

    for those that havent got it, this is how it works
    camera always has the adapter on it

    to mount 43rds lens, side 2 of the adapter flange 'A' goes onto the body
    this leaves the 43rds side of the mount protruding out of the body
    lens fits onto mount 'B' sticking out to the left of the diagram,
    camera situated at right of the adapter diagram

    to mount a m43rds lens, side 1 of the adapter flange 'A' goes onto the body
    this leaves the 43rds side of the mount inside the mirrorbox of the body
    lens fits onto mount 'C' sticking out to the right of the diagram,
    camera situated at left of the adapter diagram



    Riley

    Olympus User, Pro Photographer since 2003

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    Default Re: "Two Beautiful Systems" coming in September

    I don't think that will work due to the lens mount register differences. I don't think there is enough space to use that type of adapter in the micro four thirds configuration. It would be better (IMHO) to go with a modular design for the mount. Also, think of all the debris you could introduce into the camera body with a reversible adapter.

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    Default Re: "Two Beautiful Systems" coming in September

    Ahhhhhhh.................... No.
    E-1
    E-5
    EP-3
    EPL-1
    EM-5
    Pen F
    M8.2
    M9-P
    M 240
    Dlux 109
    M-6
    Enuff lenses to supply the world.

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    Default Re: "Two Beautiful Systems" coming in September

    I guess we will all find out whats coming when the powers that be want us to know.
    All I know is on the Australian Olympus site all the 4/3 lenses except the SHGs are listed as out of stock.

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    Default Re: "Two Beautiful Systems" coming in September

    Quote Originally Posted by saburns View Post
    I don't think that will work due to the lens mount register differences.
    that difference is self explanatory
    the MMF-x adapters are 20mm thick
    I have 3 MMF-x adapters, theyre all 20mm, I invite anyone else to check
    these things are poorly designed and made IMO

    Quote Originally Posted by saburns
    I don't think there is enough space to use that type of adapter in the micro four thirds configuration.
    4rds mount is 46mm wide inside, 43mm inside the 43rds mount flanges
    the remaining register 38.67mm - 20mm adapter 18.67mm distance from mount surface to sensor

    Micro 4/3rds Photography: Register distance

    interestingly m43rds register is listed at 20mm, that + the MMF-x thickness of 20mm, makes 40mm not 38.67mm

    while the register is absolutely 38.67mm, this is because in practise this is actually a little different
    the fitting of AA filters and other bits of glass in front of the sensor have different refractive indexes
    for the same reason why the light path of an SLR light path looking through the OVF is longer that the distance to the sensor and film plane
    so it is somewhat adjustable. For every 1mm thick piece of glass in front of the sensor the distance grows by 1.5mm
    Refractive index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    so they already have a 20mm register for m43rds, and a 20mm adapter for a 38.67mm 43rds register
    the sensor therefore is just outside the mount, 'just', but well inside its 43mm diameter

    again it doesnt seem to work out that way in reality
    my GH2 sensor surface is 13.2mm from the mount, I dont know what the stack is comprised of or how thick it is
    but taken as same/same, I would have to put the sensor and the IS inside and forward of the the mirrorbox 6.8mm (about 1/4 inch)

    Quote Originally Posted by saburns
    It would be better (IMHO) to go with a modular design for the mount. Also, think of all the debris you could introduce into the camera body with a reversible adapter.
    not really any different to using any other adapter, other than it becomes quite close
    the greater risk is touching the sensor with the sides of the adapter
    but it just means the mirrorbox shape needs to be the same size and shape of the adapter, self guiding
    Riley

    Olympus User, Pro Photographer since 2003

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