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Thread: A Net Exodus?

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    Default A Net Exodus?

    This might be an unpopular topic for those who want to see micro 4/3 succeed. I am not here trying to specifically slag the EM-1, nor mirrorless in general (Well, maybe that is only 98% true, not 100% true). But, I cannot help but notice the sheer volume of 4/3 users who are in full flight to competitors' DSLR systems recently, in every old-time 4/3 forum it seems. The more disturbing pattern is the number of 4/3 users who are fleeing Olympus *after* buying and using the EM-1 for a while with their 4/3 lenses.

    The really interesting thing is that rather than saying "I will buy some micro4/3 lenses" they are saying, basically, "I am outta here and into Canikonyland". Need proof? Look at the top of this discussion forum today. Like I said, disturbing,

    I really want Olympus to succeed, but only if it does so with my existing 4/3 lens base. Otherwise, I simply have moved on from mirrorless. And I mean completely. I suspect that is the opposite of what Olympus wants.

    I know that there are those who will point to the various enthusiasts' awards won by the EM-1, and the new users gravitating to micro 4/3. Yes, that is true, but only to a limited extent IMHO. The true extent outside the forum-poster-universe likely paints a far different picture. Mirrorless remains but a tiny fraction of the NA and European camera markets. And it's not exactly growing by leaps. The EM-1 appeals to an even tinier subset within that tiny subset of the overall camera market. For the foreseeable future, Joe P & S shooters looking to upgrade think DSLR, not mirrorless, and that aint' gonna change soon.

    Need more anecdotal evidence? Do you really think the two smartest Camera makers in the world would not have invested more resources into mirrorless if they thought the investment was worth it? Some call them slow and stupid for that.

    I call them smart. Smart enough to see mirrorless for what it is in its current state: adequate.

    Windows 8. Betamax. Chevy Volt. Best intentions to "compete". You get my drift. Of course, I point to Leica as a counterpoint. "Olympus is not Leica", you yell. Yet, what other lenses on the market were as sterling as the SHGs? That is WHY I bought into Olympus in the first place. The bodies were secondary. Sounds an awful lot like Leica, especially digital Leica.

    I spent as much on gear as did roughly a combined 500 typical Olympus buyers over the past decade. Thanks for thinking of me, Olympus!

    All I know is that it will be an interesting year or two. If Olympus make mirrorless work with phase detect lenses, I'll eat my words. If not, c'est le vie Olympus, it was smart marketing to convince me to continue spending all that money on your 4/3 gear over the past decade. But, once bitten, twice shy and all that...

    Leigh
    zippski

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    Default Re: A Net Exodus?

    I have noticed that even the most die hard defenders of Olympus here use other systems and not Olympus exclusively. It's almost as if m4/3rd is their second system.


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    Default Re: A Net Exodus?

    Yes, it seems like the Olympus only shooters are vanishing. I added Nikon to my stable less than a year ago but already find that the only time I shoot with my E-M5 is when I want the small size. Since my D7100 is roughly the same size and weight as my E-5 that isn't even a contest. You do see people on the Nikon forums talking about getting a u4/3 camera but it is usually as a travel camera or a camera for a relative where size is the major factor. For me, the E-M5 has never been as comfortable in my hands as the E-5, and now the D7100 and D800.

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    Default Re: A Net Exodus?

    Sometimes you have to get the proper tool to finish job. I bought into Olympus a few years back after comparing my daughters Nikon D70 and fellow pro photographer (he used an RB67 and Pentax 35) and had a Canon Rebel. I look through both and took good images but I was old school I missed split image (Nikon FM and Mamyia C330). I just happen to see E500's with two lenses which I thought was good deal. I really did not do enough research but I was pleased with the results. I added an E1 as they were being blown out the door. I bought 50/2, 11-22, and 50-200. Excellent images but neither had really good focusing in low light except the E1 with a split image that worked. I later added the 520 and E30. Last year I got rid of the oldest bodies and kit lenses and opted for the D7000 in fact two to replace. I did pick up some Nikon glass a 50/1.8D and 85/1.8D. I now have high ISO that is reasonable. I owe no allegiance to any manufacture I have Mac's new and old and even a Hackintosh (10.9) plus an Asus Netbook (10.6) and put white Apple stickers on the "non-apple" units.
    If you read the 2nd line I shot with 35mm and 220 film two entirely different cameras.
    One nice thing on the D7K I can use my AIS lenses and program them in as non-cpu lenses. Yes I have to manual focus I still wished for split image. I may send one to Rachel Katz.
    Its all marketing look how Canon and Nikon push models out the door just to get a market share. These cameras are still evolving and real no one know what the convergence will be. I don't own a cell phone nor do I care to have one (thats one tether I do not want!). Look at Nokia and 40+ MP camera, just do a search for iPhone images yes there not going to 30 x 40 size and most of those camera phone the people only look at that dinky screen. Oh I know I will get flamed. I just want a little warmer weather and that 107 inch snow to all melt away so I can start taking more images.

    Lou Cioccio

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    Default Re: A Net Exodus?

    While I have really liked all my previous Olympus camera from the E10 up through my E-5, I am less than happy with my E-M1 when using my existing 4/3 lenses. Unfortunately, I believed all the Olympus hype on this camera, and while it may be good with M4/3 lenses, I am not really happy with the results I get with my 4/3 lenses. Also, while the high ISO is better than my E-5, it is not as good as I thought it would be.

    I just wish Olympus had spent a little more time refining this camera before they released it. If it were as good as their advertisements said it was, it would be a great camera.

    I am not jumping ship yet, but I won't promise my next camera will be an Olympus.
    Lawrence

    All of the images I post are open for critique. Feel free to modify one of my images if it helps the critique.

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    Default Re: A Net Exodus?

    My photographic needs are obviously not shared with any of you.

    Do you always believe marketing hype?
    Do you always assume because a company says something that it must be exactly as you interpret it?

    I buy, I test, I make sure the equipment does what I expected it would before I can no longer return it as unsatisfactory. I have done this with the E-M1 and it does exactly what I expected it to, with both my FT and mFT lenses. If it didn't work well for me, I'd have returned it.

    I have done this with all of the cameras I own and use. I have four systems in three different formats. They all do different things best.

    One tool never does everything best.

    G

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    Default Re: A Net Exodus?

    Godfrey,
    That is the point of this thread. The E-M1, while a good, and possibly excellent camera for some, is not a good fit for everyone. Since Olympus has basically become a one trick pony, it is no longer the best choice for many of us. You, like many of us, do not use a single camera brand or image format.

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    Default Re: A Net Exodus?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post

    Do you always believe marketing hype?
    Do you always assume because a company says something that it must be exactly as you interpret it?

    G
    Prior to the Olympus advertising on the E-M1, I had a lot of respect for the company. I guess I could have been considered an Olympus fan boy.

    Unfortunately, I have lost a lot of respect for the company which I believe release a camera to the public before it was as good as their hype.

    I am not saying this is a bad camera, and I am sure it will work great for my studio work where I have full control over the lighting. It is just that I am trying to branch out to shooting concerts, and it just doesn't produce the results I had hoped for, for this type of shooting.
    Lawrence

    All of the images I post are open for critique. Feel free to modify one of my images if it helps the critique.

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    Default Re: A Net Exodus?

    I suspect birding and sports take an disproportionate fraction of discussion board traffic to what they represent in camera use and sales. If one wants to transform their 4/3 lens collection into a birding and sports lens set by switching to micro, they're forgetting they weren't terribly well suited to the task with 4/3 bodies. It's simply never been an Olympus forte.

    The proportion of things photographic that can only be done with a DSLR is a small one, becoming slimmer by the week. It's a blind spot in the Canikon universe that in the mid to long-term, the DSLR will prevail. There's no reason it will, beyond marketplace inertia. But demographically, the DSLR buyer is an aging cohort and IMHO doesn't represent the future.

    Cheers,

    Rick

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    Default Re: A Net Exodus?

    4/3 is actually a really small system compared to m4/3. Compare the buzz m4/3 has generated around the web with 4/3!

    Most people who bought into Olympus for the size advantage of their equipment have already switched to m4/3. Travel photographers, street shooters, people who only use a camera occasionally and don't want to carry around a brick, etc, etc. A gigantic part of the market that simply doesn't care about DSLRs and would only consider m4/3 or Fuji or Sony. Who wants to use those 1kg lenses? Try pointing one of those 1kg monsters to someone on the street or at your kid while he waits in line at the theme park. Recently somebody who makes documentaries bought the 14mm f/2.5 pancake from me for his small black magic camera - he said when he films with the big stuff, people get scared and don't talk freely and the small cameras help a lot in his work. Quality is good enough that it is no longer an issue. Who cares about 4/3? Using 4/3 lenses is like a niche in a niche.

    Those people who bought into Olympus for the DSLR are of course switching to other DSLR brands.

    The reality is, this is Olympus at its most successful. Hell, even dpreview picked Olympus E-M1 as the enthusiast camera of the year! When has that ever happened? In comparison the E-1/3/5 was always considered kinda like your retarded kid brother - "not quite there yet".

    Personally, I couldn't be happier with my equipment! I have never taken as many pictures as I have with my m4/3 equipment. Hell, even that 280g lens is starting to look heavy... last year I was in Angkor Wat. I saw a guy with the Nikon D800 + the Nikon holy trinity of 14-24/24-70/70-200. Sweat flowing from his forehead, down his back, into his wet shorts. And I thought - thank god for m4/3! DSLR - never again.
    Last edited by Edmunds; 02-11-2014 at 02:41 AM.
    Olympus OM-D EM-5
    12mm f/2.0 - 17mm f/1.8 - 25mm f/1.4 - 60mm f/2.8 macro - 75-300mm f/4.8-6.7
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    Default Re: A Net Exodus?

    Quote Originally Posted by saburns View Post
    Godfrey,
    That is the point of this thread. The E-M1, while a good, and possibly excellent camera for some, is not a good fit for everyone. Since Olympus has basically become a one trick pony, it is no longer the best choice for many of us. You, like many of us, do not use a single camera brand or image format.
    I would say that Olympus have never been the best choice for every one. The problem with this site, is that a large group of the users, are users that need the things Olympus never delivered - fast and precise continous AF. You have been hoping and dreaming of it all the time I have been here. But finally, I think you are starting to wake up and see reality.

    But for us who do landscape, street, concert, travel and portrait photo, -4/3 have delivered the goods since 2012. And 4/3 before that.

    What annoys me, is all the whining, instead of just accepting reality and switch ... And I don't think it is necessary to give Godfrey so much heat - he is after all trying to give you some tips to get the best out of your E-M1, if you decide to stay with it.
    flickr | "God made the integers; all else is the work of man" - Leopold Kronecker

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    Default Re: A Net Exodus?

    I think the main issue is that with 4/3 Olympus tried to take on the big boys and "equal" their equipment. This is why lenses such as the 1.5kg 35-100mm f/2.0 and the 3.3kg 300mm f/2.8 exist. And I guess people who bought this type of equipment want to consider it the best you can get in the world.

    m4/3 takes on a different take. Olympus already says, this is not the best, but hey, its damn good - good enough for most of you - and its really small and light. A compromise that many people are more than happy to make, but others are not.

    The 4/3 strategy was always flawed. While cameras like the E-410 or maybe upto E-30 had a point, there is absolutely no reason to carry cameras and lenses that are almost the same size as full frame and only have a sensor 1/4 the size. The only advantage of the smaller sensor ended up being price, which was why Olympus lost a ton of money with 4/3. Moreover, there was absolutely no reason for anybody to switch from Canikon to Olympus, at best the Olympus equipment was equal, there was no added value.

    The 4/3 lineup was also inadequate. Photo schools also could not recommend Olympus equipment because the wider depth of field and lack of cheap non-macro prime lenses meant that its difficult to teach photography basics with Olympus equipment. The macro primes do not have focus limiter switches, constantly rattling from macro to normal range as you acquire focus. There is only one lens faster than f/2.0 and it costs $900. I look at my current lens lineup - there is no way to equal that with 4/3 equipment.
    Olympus OM-D EM-5
    12mm f/2.0 - 17mm f/1.8 - 25mm f/1.4 - 60mm f/2.8 macro - 75-300mm f/4.8-6.7
    - FL36R

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    Default Re: A Net Exodus?

    Micro 4/3 isn't going to fail.
    It's just not going to 'succeed' as a rival to the usual suspects. As a vehicle for Oly to turn a profit, it has every chance of achieving its goal.

    Looking back at the last ten years, and the decline in Olys fortunes compared to the glory days of the 35mm OMs, is very sad.
    I write as someone who owned about a dozen Olympus cameras and was very happy with them all.

    i think they went off- track, when they abandoned that famous OM lens mount.

    I found that baffling, and annoying. In fact, without swearing, I'm having trouble expressing how much it irked me. It smacked of betrayal, an insult even.

    I'm sure they've got a future as a top quality optical company, but so sad they lost the plot with digital.

    :-(

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    Default Re: A Net Exodus?

    All I really care about right now is that the format works for me, for what I shoot. Would another brand work, sure, but it's going to be bigger and bulkier, and not likely produce better images than what I need. Sure, a D800 with a few lenses would be awesome, but....

    The other day I packed two sling bags (tamrac velocity 6 and 7) for a photo shoot. In the big bag with the em1 I had
    7-14mm
    12-60mm with mmf3
    50mm
    20
    45

    In the small bag
    jupiter 9
    2 fl-36
    3 v5 duos

    I wore the big bag all day long and was comfortable.
    Clint
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    Default Re: A Net Exodus?

    Quote Originally Posted by doofclenas View Post
    The other day I packed two sling bags (tamrac velocity 6 and 7) for a photo shoot. In the big bag with the em1 I had

    --listed was a vast list of m43 gear--

    I wore the big bag all day long and was comfortable.
    Exactly!! ;-)

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    Default Re: A Net Exodus?

    I found the crappy ipad photo I took of it...what was nice, is I could sling both bags over my shoulders and grab my tripod in one hand, and my light stand in my other.
    I do have to correct that list, from above, the flashes were in the big bag (on the side lens holder, the 7-14 was on the other side to balance the bag).

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Clint
    Rockin' it Mirrorless Style
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    HLD-7, FL-600r, FL-36r, FL-36, Cactus V5 Duo (x2)

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    Default Re: A Net Exodus?

    Quote Originally Posted by saburns View Post
    Godfrey,
    That is the point of this thread. The E-M1, while a good, and possibly excellent camera for some, is not a good fit for everyone. Since Olympus has basically become a one trick pony, it is no longer the best choice for many of us. You, like many of us, do not use a single camera brand or image format.
    No camera is ever the best fit for everyone or the best performer for every task.

    I've been doing photography since I was eight ... I started with subminiature when I started to buy my own cameras, and next had 6x6 format TLR to learn with. All through the past 50 years I've had 35 RF, 35 SLR, subminiature, and medium format cameras to work with. Nowadays, I use submini film, FourThirds, 35mm film and digital, and 6x6 format cameras.

    Nothing has changed other than the recording medium and how I render photographs.
    Everything has changed because of the recording medium and how I render photographs.
    Format differences, and differences between equipment even in the same format, remain a constant.

    As tomsi42 said below:

    Quote Originally Posted by tomsi42 View Post
    What annoys me, is all the whining, instead of just accepting reality and switch ... And I don't think it is necessary to give Godfrey so much heat - he is after all trying to give you some tips to get the best out of your E-M1, if you decide to stay with it.
    I don't give a hoot about the heat. If I don't like it, I'll just stop coming here and offering my assistance. If you don't care for my comments, assistance and opinions, ignore them.

    G

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    Default Re: A Net Exodus?

    Simple as that Zippski - people who want to buy new dSLR camera will go out and buy new dSLR. If Olympus doesn't make one, they will go and buy someone else's.
    People like me and you will continue to use their E-5 or in my case E-1 as well.
    People who want to try mirrorless have lots of body choices to choose from.

    It turns out I shoot around 85% m4/3 and 10% 4/3 and 5% 35mm digital.

    Choice is good, embrace it.
    Cameras:E-5; E-3; E-1; E-620; GH-1
    Lens: 12-60mm 50mm f/2; 50-200swd; Ex-25; 70-300; 40-150mkI; 35mm f/3.5; 25mm f/2.8; 14-140 u43
    Lights: Fl36Rx2; Fl50R; FL50; Elinchrom 2x400ws radio controlled.

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    Default Re: A Net Exodus?

    Interesting thread. I just sent in all of my Olympus gear today, anticipating a trade-in for Canon gear and a couple of years of paying off said gear taking advantage of 0% interest and no wife or kid's college fund

    For me, it came down to the fact that I love birds. Leave it to me to pick the most difficult thing to shoot and the most expensive thing to shoot, but I love the feathers, the sharpness, getting it right, and just finding them. I find it incredibly relaxing, and still hope to have success selling images for a few extra bucks on my web site or at shows. But just being able to nail the photo is what I like most.

    I walked into the camera shop just wanting a DSLR 5 years ago as I had a canon powershot. I looked at different brands and what got me was the 2x crop sensor, as I thought this would be great to get closer. And it was. I got some pretty good bird shots and it came in handy for sports as well. I eagerly got the E5 a couple of years later, and thought the EM1 would be "the" camera - I could now shoot at high ISO just fine, and have my cake and eat it too.

    When I got the EM-1, I was initially a little frustrated at focus speed, especially for birds in flight. I then tried some different things, and it just would not cut it. It would however do pretty good for perched birds.

    I then got to thinking that all of what I own is four-thirds save for that body. I had no interest in micro four-thirds lenses whatsoever; I had my assembled kit and would be using it. But then I also got to thinking there is no E7. Looked to be a nice prototype, but it was never released. And it's clear micro is the way of the future, not old four-thirds. This is a problem.

    Another problem is that it seems that while the 2x crop is great, Olympus is not the marquee company for a bird photographer. There is the 300 2.8 which was amazing. But I also was using a 2x tele on that. Why wasn't Olympus following suit and cranking out a 500, 600 or 800 too?

    There's also the timing for me of good used lenses on the market and the timing of trying to get the most for what I own. As was pointed out, my lenses will not appreciate in value - and no glass will - but will they hold their value over time as more and more micro four-thirds is the way of the future? I have my doubts. So this would leave me down the road not having new four-thirds lenses coming out. The adaptor works OK - but shooting with an adaptor, a teleconverter, and then a lens is a lot of connections.

    I can't say how the new set-up will work - a lot of it is the photographer. But when I'm going out on a trip, and investing a day into photographing birds, or going to watch eagles, or spending 8 days just doing birds on a May vacation to warblerville (Biggest Week in American Birding fest), I really want the peace of mind that I'll have the best odds of focusing on the bird in the tree and not having things go constantly out of focus only to zoom in on a clear branch, or follow an eagle and get some nice shots rather than just constant hunting and leaving with nothing but aggravation for driving 90 minutes to get absolutely nothing but a decent burger at my favorite restaurant.

    Olympus I think is a good company, and my gear served me well. Were I a portrait person, a street photographer, or just a parent wanting keepers of my kids ball games, I'd have no qualms with Olympus. But as I shoot many different things but really only care about 1 - birds - I want the best equipment possible as this is a very long-term investment.

    And while no one knows the future, I can honestly say I have a lot more peace of mind with Canon being there and my lenses being able to be supported and work, and new lenses that will work with my body for a very long time. Here's hoping anyway.
    Father Paul

    Olympus EM1
    70-300, 9-18, 12-60, 50-200, Olympus Zuiko 300 f2.8, EC 14 & EC 20, shutter remote, FL 50

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    Default Re: A Net Exodus?

    People sure do get passionate about these types of issues. I say "whatever". I love my EM5, & E3. I still own a E500 and an old Minolta Maxuum 35mm camera that I enjoyed immensely. I plan on adding a FF to my arsenal but I am waiting to see what happens in the mirrorless FF world.

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    Default Re: A Net Exodus?

    "I call them smart. Smart enough to see mirrorless for what it is in its current state: adequate."

    I am very pleased with both the Lumix GH2 and the Olympus E-M1 which gives me a reason to hang on to the ED Zuikos. I understand BIF I think. Is that not mean Babes in Frillies? Special needs I can understand. All around subject matter dictates an all around easy to carry machine for me. I also love the Lumix 12-35 lens, great for BIFs ( my kind I mean)....:-)

    When one chooses Exodus, or jumping ship, be sure it is not 40 years in the wilderness with unleavened bread.Or jumping ship in the North Atlantic. Multiple systems.....too much of a stretch for an aging cortex like mine....gs

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    Default Re: A Net Exodus?

    I think that before you buy into a camera system you need to decide what you want to do with your photography and be guided accordingly, as there is no 100% perfect camera system.
    Then change system when your current gear does not fulfill your needs any more, but don't blame the manufacturer as they cannot be everything to everyone.
    I am convinced that changing from my E5 to Canikon or Leica etc. will not improve my photographs one jot, and I have no intention to do so, not because of 'brand loyalty' but because there is no point.
    I would however like to have a go with a Phase One set up

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    Default Re: A Net Exodus?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Roberts View Post
    I think that before you buy into a camera system you need to decide what you want to do with your photography and be guided accordingly, as there is no 100% perfect camera system.
    Then change system when your current gear does not fulfill your needs any more, but don't blame the manufacturer as they cannot be everything to everyone.
    I am convinced that changing from my E5 to Canikon or Leica etc. will not improve my photographs one jot, and I have no intention to do so, not because of 'brand loyalty' but because there is no point.
    I would however like to have a go with a Phase One set up
    For me it was, let's give it one more shot. Add to it the official Olympus statement about how it will autofocus the 90-250 like it should be focused. I really didn't expect worse performance for what I like to shoot. But, it's all water under the bridge for me now, the big tuna was sold last night as well as my two teleconverters, long lens head, better beamer, metz 58 AF-1, throw over blind and other assorted gear.

    I still have a bunch of gear to sell, EM-5 or EM-1, going to keep one. STF-22, 60mm m4/3 macro, ep-3, etc etc. Just might be able to take a nice vacation after it all sells :-D

    Cheers

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    Default Re: A Net Exodus?

    Padre,
    Let us know what you get.

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    Default Re: A Net Exodus?

    Quote Originally Posted by padrepaul77 View Post
    Why wasn't Olympus following suit and cranking out a 500, 600 or 800 too?
    I have wondered about this for many years. It always seemed to me that even back in their DSLR days that they were not really interested in attracting the wildlife crowd, which REALLY seemed odd to me, since many (you and me included) were drawn to Oly DSLRs because of the 2x factor.

    Anyway, good luck deciding on the Canon stuff!
    Rich
    Olympus E-M10; Panasonic GM5
    m4/3 lenses: Oly 75-300; Oly 14-42 f3.5-5.6 II R; Oly 17 f1.8; Oly 40-150 f4.0-5.6 R; Oly WCON-P01 adapter; Rokinon f7.5 fisheye; Sigma 19 f2.8; Pan 20 f1.7; Pan 12-35 f2.8; Pan 12-32

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