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Thread: A Net Exodus?

  1. #51
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    Default Re: A Net Exodus?

    No, you are not!

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    Default Re: A Net Exodus?

    At the height of the DSLR boom in late '00s, Olympus was the #3 DSLR manufacturer with about 6% of a DSLR market of 12 million DSLRs.
    The problem with your analysis is that at the end of the height of the DSLR boom Olympus almost went bankrupt.

    If Panasonic had not invented m4/3, there would be no camera division at Olympus today.
    Olympus E-M1 Mk II
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    Default Re: A Net Exodus?

    I think it's safe to say they laid the groundwork for competing in that arena. I think it's fair to go a step further and say they were still interested up through the introduction of the SWD lenses, including the refresh of the 50-200. But after that, things ground to a halt, with but one more lens introduced. Had they refreshed the SHG teles with SWD focusing then they'd be legitimately competing in the sports and wildlife arena, and I suspect they probably had plans to do just that, but that's as far as it got. We'll never know what super-teles got left on the drawing board. It's a zero sum game in that specialty market, with the various makers competing for a relatively fixed volume of sales. With Sony's entry Oly became far less likely to elbow into line.

    We shall see how much they can wring out of the OM-D system. I suspect quite a bit. Consider:

    *E-1 to E-3--4.5 years
    *E-P1 to E-M1--4.5 years

    Cheers,

    Rick

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    Default Re: A Net Exodus?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick_D View Post
    I think it's safe to say they laid the groundwork for competing in that arena. I think it's fair to go a step further and say they were still interested up through the introduction of the SWD lenses, including the refresh of the 50-200. But after that, things ground to a halt, with but one more lens introduced. Had they refreshed the SHG teles with SWD focusing then they'd be legitimately competing in the sports and wildlife arena.
    Not without competent C-AF. Anybody spending that kind of money on a lens is going to expect a body capable of tracking a moving subject.

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    Default Re: A Net Exodus?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick_D View Post
    Had they refreshed the SHG teles with SWD focusing then they'd be legitimately competing in the sports and wildlife arena
    There is no reason to drop $xxxx and pick the smaller sensor from an unproven company over full frame or APS-C.

    Nobody seriously shooting sports or wildlife would drop their Canon equipment and move to Olympus. Its a completely useless battle that could only go one way for Oly.

    The advantage of the smaller sensor is size of cameras and lenses. The only reason people are paying a premium for m4/3 is because the thing is so small.
    Olympus E-M1 Mk II
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    Default Re: A Net Exodus?

    Quote Originally Posted by Edmunds View Post
    There is no reason to drop $xxxx and pick the smaller sensor from an unproven company over full frame or APS-C.

    Nobody seriously shooting sports or wildlife would drop their Canon equipment and move to Olympus. Its a completely useless battle that could only go one way for Oly.

    The advantage of the smaller sensor is size of cameras and lenses. The only reason people are paying a premium for m4/3 is because the thing is so small.
    And the advantages it used to be able to claim, 2x crop and small size, are disappearing with cameras offering in camera crops that equal the 2x of u4/3 and cameras like the Sony Alpha 7R that are the same size as an E-M1 but have a FF sensor and offer image quality close to a D800. Yes, the 7R has some issues with burst rate and noise but seeing how it is a first generation design, it, and cameras like it, could spell serious trouble for Olympus.

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    Default Re: A Net Exodus?

    No. Not really. Take a look at its 70-200 f/4 and you will find out why m4/3 will always be smaller.
    If you want to compare small representatives from each systems dont compare a7r to E-m1. Compare it to gm-1.
    Cameras:E-5; E-3; E-1; E-620; GH-1
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    And while you are at it, Like it if you like it

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    Default Re: A Net Exodus?

    Thread is taking on characteristics of a group therapy session: "Now, show us on the doll where Olympus touched you."

    Confess I would prefer that Olympus consult with me before making a business decision. Call me, guys! Having gone through "my brand" completely closing shop, I'll endure my present relationship with Oly as a far preferable outcome to that. Frankly, there's nothing from the Big Three that gets my pulse above resting speed anyway.

    Cheers,

    Rick

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    Default Re: A Net Exodus?

    Quote Originally Posted by saburns View Post
    And the advantages it used to be able to claim, 2x crop and small size, are disappearing with cameras offering in camera crops that equal the 2x of u4/3 and cameras like the Sony Alpha 7R that are the same size as an E-M1 but have a FF sensor and offer image quality close to a D800. Yes, the 7R has some issues with burst rate and noise but seeing how it is a first generation design, it, and cameras like it, could spell serious trouble for Olympus.
    I have a full kit with the E-M1 all of which performs very satisfactorily.
    I also have a Sony A7. I have a full kit of lenses for it too ... *none* of them Sony. So it is a 100% manual focusing camera with limited AE modes and features compared to the E-M1. And it is noticeably less responsive compared to the E-M1 even with the E-M1 set to all manual focus.

    The problem with the A7/A7r, aside from the rather haphazard ergonomics and menu design, is that at present there are really only two superior lenses for it, the 35 and 55 mm. The new 24-70 is somewhat compromised, the 28-70 is a decent consumer zoom, and the rest is "wait and see what Sony does" unless you buy into the Sony adapters for their DSLR lenses. And then the adaptation is far less seamless than the E-M1 + FourThirds lenses that y'all are griping about.

    On the other hand, the A7 sensor is terrific and the viewfinder is second ONLY to the E-M1 viewfinder for quality. Fitted with a Novoflex NEX/LER adapter and with my kit of Leica R lenses, the imaging performance is just superb. Continuous follow focus is as accurate as my skill at focusing manually ... At least when I don't get sharp focus, I know who's to blame. ]'-)

    G

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    Default Re: A Net Exodus?

    Quote Originally Posted by saburns View Post
    And the advantages it used to be able to claim, 2x crop and small size, are disappearing with cameras offering in camera crops that equal the 2x of u4/3 and cameras like the Sony Alpha 7R that are the same size as an E-M1 but have a FF sensor and offer image quality close to a D800. Yes, the 7R has some issues with burst rate and noise but seeing how it is a first generation design, it, and cameras like it, could spell serious trouble for Olympus.
    I don't think this is the case at all. a7R lenses are far bigger than m4/3 lenses. Even APS-C NEX/Fuji lenses are really large.

    Now, of course, full frame now restricts how much premium m4/3 can ask. Gigantic $2500 f/2.0 zooms means a losing battle. If full frame cameras are $1700, then Olypana will have to sell their most premium camera for less than that. If Sony comes out with a Carl Zeiss 85mm f/1.8, then the Panasonic 42.5mm f/1.2 will make far less sense as a purchase.

    But where the real market for m4/3 is - small cameras, small lenses, and good bang for your buck, lenses like the 20mm f/1.7 and 45mm f/1.8, that is really untouchable because full frame will never match those sizes and prices
    Olympus E-M1 Mk II
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    Default Re: A Net Exodus?

    Quote Originally Posted by Edmunds View Post
    But where the real market for m4/3 is - small cameras, small lenses
    I agree - people seem to forget about the lens size. Compared to lenses for an APS-C pr full-frame camera, even regular 4/3 lenses are considerably smaller. For example, the size difference between my 4/3 Oly 14-54 and my Sigma 17-70 (for Canon) is amazing, the 4:3 lens is so much smaller and lighter. Same with the 9-18 4:3 vs a Tokina 12-24 for Canon. Some of the difference might be because of the maximum f-stop (I'm too lazy to haul them out and check), but they aren't much different, if at all.

    I had considered getting a Canon SL1 for a travel camera - very small! But yikes, those honking lenses!!
    Rich
    Olympus E-M10; Panasonic GM5
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    Default Re: A Net Exodus?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick_D View Post
    Thread is taking on characteristics of a group therapy session: "Now, show us on the doll where Olympus touched you."

    Confess I would prefer that Olympus consult with me before making a business decision. Call me, guys! Having gone through "my brand" completely closing shop, I'll endure my present relationship with Oly as a far preferable outcome to that. Frankly, there's nothing from the Big Three that gets my pulse above resting speed anyway.

    +1. Glad we are still titled "The Forum for Four Thirds and Micro Four Thirds Enthusiasts" with a few demurrers now and then..:-)
    Cheers,

    Rick

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    Default Re: A Net Exodus?

    Quote Originally Posted by orthogent View Post
    Lady Macbeth said it, Don " Stand not upon the order of your going, but go at once." I am staying however with 4/3 despite all its manifold 'vexations" (plus ugly corporate bumbling. )
    As an aside: Michael Caine, doing original movie called "Alfie" had no trouble in capturing his species of "birds." Ergo, Bless 'em all, the long and the short and the tall.....And golden plovers on Oahu...flying here over water from leagues and leagues away... Aloha, Gerry
    Keep it coming

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    Default Re: A Net Exodus?

    I would never say never. Who would have thought you could buy a full frame P&S like the RX1 three years ago? Nobody. Sony has a lens map of 12 or so E mount lenses in 2014 and the a6000 is claiming the fastest mirrorless focus system made. As far as ergonomics many claim the a7R isnt that good but I find just the opposite. I like a simple layout and not too many programmable buttons. I think the E-M1 and E-M5 are far to complex. Granted some people prefer lots of buttons and dials I don't. I never could remember what I had set for what and I had it lockup on me several times and after a camera reset I had to start all over again.
    Sony has big plans for its camera systems. I think we are going to continue to see ground breaking technology from them. Also the image quality of the a7R isn't close to the D800 it's slightly better and also the Sony's correct for diffraction. My D800 is pretty much limited to F/8.




    Quote Originally Posted by Edmunds View Post
    I don't think this is the case at all. a7R lenses are far bigger than m4/3 lenses. Even APS-C NEX/Fuji lenses are really large.

    Now, of course, full frame now restricts how much premium m4/3 can ask. Gigantic $2500 f/2.0 zooms means a losing battle. If full frame cameras are $1700, then Olypana will have to sell their most premium camera for less than that. If Sony comes out with a Carl Zeiss 85mm f/1.8, then the Panasonic 42.5mm f/1.2 will make far less sense as a purchase.

    But where the real market for m4/3 is - small cameras, small lenses, and good bang for your buck, lenses like the 20mm f/1.7 and 45mm f/1.8, that is really untouchable because full frame will never match those sizes and prices


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    Default Re: A Net Exodus?

    I can't see full frame lenses matching size AND price of m4/3. How much is that 55mm f/1.8? $1000? Ture, the future of m4/3 does not lie in $1000+ lenses, but that doesn't mean there is no future.

    I do see your point! However, there are also bigger market forces. 5-10 years from now are we even going to need a special separate imaging device?
    Olympus E-M1 Mk II
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    Default Re: A Net Exodus?

    Quote Originally Posted by Edmunds View Post
    I can't see full frame lenses matching size AND price of m4/3. How much is that 55mm f/1.8? $1000? Ture, the future of m4/3 does not lie in $1000+ lenses, but that doesn't mean there is no future.

    I do see your point! However, there are also bigger market forces. 5-10 years from now are we even going to need a special separate imaging device?
    My point is Sony in changing what we thought was possible. I read tons of threads before the rx1 that claimed mirrorless full frame wasn't possible due to the distance from the lens rear element to the sensor.
    As far as lens size I can shoot my a7R in cropped mode and use the smaller E mount lenses and still have a suitable image. Or with the proper adaptor use any lens from any system I chose with AF.
    One problem with Sony's new lenses are there all Zeiss. They are going to be big and heavy as all Zeiss lenses are. At that the new Zeiss lenses are much cheaper than the bigger A mount ones. So when one is faced with the price of the new E-M1 or the a7 I think the choice is clear. Full frame for almost the same price is a no brainer for most.
    I have said it for years Olympus needs a better sensor. The other companies are running off and leaving them in the image quality area. All one needs due is try someone else camera to see. I would love to use Olympus again. But they need to step up their game.


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    Default Re: A Net Exodus?

    Quote Originally Posted by cosmonaut View Post
    My point is Sony in changing what we thought was possible. I read tons of threads before the rx1 that claimed mirrorless full frame wasn't possible due to the distance from the lens rear element to the sensor.
    As far as lens size I can shoot my a7R in cropped mode and use the smaller E mount lenses and still have a suitable image. Or with the proper adaptor use any lens from any system I chose with AF.
    One problem with Sony's new lenses are there all Zeiss. They are going to be big and heavy as all Zeiss lenses are. At that the new Zeiss lenses are much cheaper than the bigger A mount ones. So when one is faced with the price of the new E-M1 or the a7 I think the choice is clear. Full frame for almost the same price is a no brainer for most.
    I have said it for years Olympus needs a better sensor. The other companies are running off and leaving them in the image quality area. All one needs due is try someone else camera to see. I would love to use Olympus again. But they need to step up their game.
    Ah cosmo,

    I do have both cameras ... you do too, I presume. Do you not agree that the E-M1 is a far more responsive piece of equipment? I've done a good bit of comparison shooting with them. Up to about ISO 6400, the image quality produced by the sensor is very close to identical. The E-M1's lenses are far more compact, and of equal quality.

    They're both great cameras. Each company is playing its own hand. Olympus has always delivered on lenses and usable systems. Sony hasn't delivered on lenses consistently, and skips about producing one system after another without completing any one.

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    Default Re: A Net Exodus?

    I agree Sony is changing what seemed possible. $1000 for a nifty-fifty seemed like a pipe dream for these companies, now they're selling them in droves.

    I await the incoming internet avalanche of pictures that are so much better than mine.

    The reality is that photography is an area of diminishing returns and oh boy are they diminishing. In 2014, post-processing skills are more important than whether you're using full frame or m4/3 (not to mention lighting and technique).
    Olympus E-M1 Mk II
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    Default Re: A Net Exodus?

    I'm going to wish you all using the m4/3 well with your equipment and know that it will serve you well. I simply never have had interest in the m gear and was not willing to invest like I did in 4/3. I have always been an Olympus user having bought my first back in the late '70s. I have sold my 35-100 privately outside this forum and have an E-520 with a kit 14-42 and 70-300 sold elsewhere as well. I'll have my gripped E30 with a mounted 12-60 and a couple other accessories including and FL50 flash to continued to use as I don't think I could get enough to satisfy me. Take care.


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    Default Re: A Net Exodus?

    Yes I agree the E-M1 is more responsive and yes Olympus has the lens line up. But prices are close to the same if you compare quality across the board. A good m4/3rd lens is going to set one back $800-1000.00 easy. It's hard to find a good lens by anyone less than that price. Olympus has a lot of lenses that are more specialty lenses, primes and kit lenses that many really don't use a great deal. I think Sony has a nice line up and almost anything one wants to do they can.
    As bad as a rap as the Sony gets for AF I have tracked birds and with an A mount lens via the EA-LA-4. I think there are as many myths about the Sony cameras as they are Olympus. It takes using one to really understand. The camera Store has a video review of the a6000 on YouTube and I think Sony has solved the mirrorless focus issue. I think everyone needs to watch it and see that a mirrorless camera can now track focus.
    Sony starts their technology at the bottom and moves up. The new focus system is coming to full frame mirrorless soon.


    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Ah cosmo,

    I do have both cameras ... you do too, I presume. Do you not agree that the E-M1 is a far more responsive piece of equipment? I've done a good bit of comparison shooting with them. Up to about ISO 6400, the image quality produced by the sensor is very close to identical. The E-M1's lenses are far more compact, and of equal quality.

    They're both great cameras. Each company is playing its own hand. Olympus has always delivered on lenses and usable systems. Sony hasn't delivered on lenses consistently, and skips about producing one system after another without completing any one.


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    Default Re: A Net Exodus?

    Quote Originally Posted by cosmonaut View Post
    Yes I agree the E-M1 is more responsive and yes Olympus has the lens line up. But prices are close to the same if you compare quality across the board. A good m4/3rd lens is going to set one back $800-1000.00 easy. It's hard to find a good lens by anyone less than that price. Olympus has a lot of lenses that are more specialty lenses, primes and kit lenses that many really don't use a great deal. I think Sony has a nice line up and almost anything one wants to do they can.
    Dunno about that. Might be a quibble but it seems to me there are a LOT of excellent sub-$500 4/3 lenses. Fast zooms are still dear but most others are quite affordable and in many cases, better than anything we had in 4/3.

    From a non-owner standpoint, Sony's efforts are splattered across a vast territory and frankly, I can't ascertain how their many systems interrelate WRT format, lens sharing, etc. I suffer from Zeissphilia yet am not tempted to jump into the pool.

    Cheers,

    Rick

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    Default Re: A Net Exodus?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    You guys are still exodusing? I thought you'd left already.

    G
    LOL
    FLICKR
    Have a great day!
    Lorey

    Please ask before editing images. Thank you.

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    Default Re: A Net Exodus?

    Point taken on Sony being all over the place. But they are moving at a blinding pace. Check out the continuos focus speed on the a6000.
    SONY a6000 11 fps AF-C indoor - YouTube


    Quote Originally Posted by Rick_D View Post
    Dunno about that. Might be a quibble but it seems to me there are a LOT of excellent sub-$500 4/3 lenses. Fast zooms are still dear but most others are quite affordable and in many cases, better than anything we had in 4/3.

    From a non-owner standpoint, Sony's efforts are splattered across a vast territory and frankly, I can't ascertain how their many systems interrelate WRT format, lens sharing, etc. I suffer from Zeissphilia yet am not tempted to jump into the pool.

    Cheers,

    Rick


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    Default So, where's that E-7 Olympus?

    I have been reading a lot in the various photo sites attempting to determine just how badly Olympus messed up in projecting the success of mirrorless cameras outside of its home market in Asia, land of tiny hands. I am becoming more and more convinced that abandoning the DSLR market was a huge and likely fatal blunder.


    Here's a recent excerpt from Mirrorless Rumours:

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Last week we reported how 2013 mirrorless sales fell by 34% in UK. The reason why DSLR is still more popular than mirrorless cameras are:


    1) Smaller cameras are fiddly to use compared to DSLR

    Well that's no more truth. With cameras like the GH4 and Fuji X-T1 and E-m1 you get very DSLR alike controls. But for a long time mirrorless system cameras where very compact.

    2) Confusing category names

    Mirrorless cameras get called all sort of things like "mirrorless system cameras", "compact system cameras" and sometimes they are also incorrectly referred as "DSRL's cameras". And also the the term "compact system camera" gets interpreted as something like a point and shoot "compact camera", also not necessarily of high image quality.

    3) Consumer are still hanging on to the glory days of Canon and Nikon.
    Particularly North America and most European countries are very conservative

    4) DSLR has wider range of accessories.

    5) Low bugdget DSLR compete against system cameras
    DSLR became very cheap the last couple of years. That made it even harder for Mirrorless cameras to gain some visibility.


    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Note that the huge drop occurred in a period when it was quiet on the DSLR front, *and* when a whole lot of new mirrorless tech was being launched.

    And then, the rep closes with the kiss of death comment:

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    What should be done to increase the popularity of mirrorless cameras?

    Panasonic manager Sykes said that instead of trying to sell a certain volume we should focus on educate the customer
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    You have simply GOT to be kidding me, Olympus. It works the other way around! The non-Asian consumer has been educated, and they want DSLRs.


    And this article, from Amateur Photographer, flogs the same tired horse:

    http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk...ort-with-video

    Make up all the excuses you want: mirrorless sales are in decline worldwide much more so than DSLR . Mirrorless exports to Europe down 26% in 2013 compared to 2012, In North America the drop was a huge 46% as well. Mirrorless sales make up only 19% of exports from Japan with DSLR taking up 81%, an that 81% is hugely dominated by just two players Canon & Nikon.

    "Educate the consumer?". The numbers show that the consumer is already pretty well educated, and after doing so, they choose the cheaper, larger-size DSLR with better quality, more flexible and extensible system from a quality manufacturer. Put another way, the EM-1 may look great online but why would an average consumer buy it? They can't pick it up in a store. They realize that it costs $1000 more than the DLSR on the next webpage, and does less. It is worse than the situation with 4/3s ever was.

    When I am 75 years old, small and light may be important. Maybe. I am a fit 55, and I could not give a flying-you-know-what about small and light. If I did, I would not have purchased every Olympus SHG lens and stuffed them all into my 40-lb hiking backpack to use 150 days per year.

    Leigh
    zippski








    Last edited by zippski; 02-27-2014 at 10:49 AM.

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    Default Re: So, where's that E-7 Olympus?

    Quote Originally Posted by zippski View Post
    outside of its home market in Asia, land of tiny hands.
    Um, there are a lot of people in other countries (including this one) with "tiny hands" - women. Just saying.
    Rich
    Olympus E-M10; Panasonic GM5
    m4/3 lenses: Oly 75-300; Oly 14-42 f3.5-5.6 II R; Oly 17 f1.8; Oly 40-150 f4.0-5.6 R; Oly WCON-P01 adapter; Rokinon f7.5 fisheye; Sigma 19 f2.8; Pan 20 f1.7; Pan 12-35 f2.8; Pan 12-32

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