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Thread: It's not just P&S troubles in the camera industry any more !

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    Thumbs down It's not just P&S troubles in the camera industry any more !

    I've seen this coming for a while now, and it also reflects on the decline of photo printing sales that I have personally seen especially over the past two years.
    http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/...etting-in.html

    While Olympus has loaded the new E models with tons of features and button customization, memorizing the operation of the cameras have become so complex as to discourage many people from using them (myself in particular)!

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    Default Re: It's not just P&S troubles in the camera industry any more !

    Good article.
    Case in point: the new 7DII from Canon, the supposed sports/nature photographers dream with a killer AF system. Well... the AF works...sometimes... IF you can figure out how to fine tune it for every possible scenario of moving target; side to side, front to back, slow to fast, unpredictable movement etc, and then have time to select the proper "case" in time to get the shot. It is so complicated, and the results are so highly inconstant, that many people are having real trouble getting even simple situations under control, like multiple shots of a stationary subject. Maybe they just have some bugs to still workout on it, but I am not jumping on that bandwagon yet, even though I had really high hopes for it and plans to get one. May still happen, but not at all sure. At least if I miss a shot with my Canon 400 on my E-M1 due to MF, I know it is me and not the system that has failed.

    The same sort of thing has happened before where technological changes have had big effects on the market and the way things were done. Back in the 70s, we photojournalists were a rare bread. We could show up at a job and get results with very simple cameras, no light meter, only manual focus, and no flash. Cameras changed and suddenly there were "photographers" coming out of the woodwork and some of us could no longer compete and/or didn't want to. It quit being fun. Guys with no training and no skill were getting the gigs, and I for one didn't want to go that direction. I was ready to move on anyway.

    Thom's ideas of having everything happen automatically might increase usability, i.e. simplicity, but it will take even more complicated technological systems to make it happen. But that is the way in this overly technological world. We have forgotten how to keep things simple. Don't see that really changing any time soon.

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    Default Re: It's not just P&S troubles in the camera industry any more !

    Just looking at my circle of friends, nobody I know has bought a new camera in the last 2 years. Nobody, not a single person.

    And its not smartphones, its more the fact that people just don't care anymore. The whole "I have to have a really good camera" craze is over. Half of all people seem to have an older DSLR that they pull out 4-5 times a year. They would rather buy $50 t-shirts than upgrade. The other half already own a camera in their phone.

    Another thing is, the internet is now chock full of good pictures, and quite frankly, people are just not interested in competing.

    On one hand, this is a good thing. Real photography is going to be left to photographers. On the other hand, much of the R&D money that has produced groundbreaking, awesome cameras in the last few years has come from people who buy cameras and never use them.

    Thom talks about usability... IMO, quite frankly, nobody cares. People who don't want to carry around a camera are not going to start because it syncs wirelessly or has nice filenames. People just don't care about the quality jump when you go from an iPhone to a mirrorless or DSLR because pictures are consumed with their phone. Most importantly, people who don't put in the time to learn how to use a camera are not going to be able to take great pictures, and will abandon it. The picture quality alone is not enough to carry around an additional device. Short of creating an auto-compose function (), I don't see camera manufacturers getting around this one.

    Also, some of the challenges he talks about being "simple" are actually gigantic mammoths. Not even my iPad is capable of wirelessly syncing photos with my desktop. Hell, it has problems syncing my photos even when plugged in.
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    Default Re: It's not just P&S troubles in the camera industry any more !

    Not to sound like a broken record, but I just can't get interested in any of the m4/3 stuff and chat. At all.

    Olympus just seemed to have missed the boat in understanding that the vast majority of its camera and HG/SHG lens users (and sales) came from keen amateurs, who bought not out of need, but out of desire to participate in a fun hobby. I am still having a blast with photography, only now I'm actually out shooting with the e-5 (and not worried about upgrading), instead of posting to forums about gear lust about gear which I do not own, and do not intend to own. Think about it...Why in the world would I anxiously await the arrival of the m4/3 300/4 when I shoot with a 300/2.8?

    It's kind of sad; I have watched the old guard peel off here, one by one, into different systems. That, I submit, would not have happened if the e-7 would have been released.

    Leigh
    zippski

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    Default Re: It's not just P&S troubles in the camera industry any more !

    There are still some people who care.Just not enough that can justify the expense of upgrading every iteration of the latest 'mega' megapixel model when all they are doing is posting to electronic media, and not printing any more. That even includes traditional forms such as wedding albums and the like.
    Last edited by dh202; 02-01-2015 at 01:15 PM.

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    Default Re: It's not just P&S troubles in the camera industry any more !

    Quote Originally Posted by zippski View Post
    . I am still having a blast with photography, only now I'm actually out shooting with the e-5 (and not worried about upgrading), instead of posting to forums about gear lust about gear which I do not own, and do not intend to own. Think about it...Why in the world would I anxiously await the arrival of the m4/3 300/4 when I shoot with a 300/2.8?
    Leigh zippski
    Glad to hear you are still shooting with the E-5 & 300/2.8. That's what I'm doing, love them, and don't envision changing.
    ~Ken

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    Default Re: It's not just P&S troubles in the camera industry any more !

    Quote Originally Posted by zippski View Post
    Not to sound like a broken record, but I just can't get interested in any of the m4/3 stuff and chat. At all.

    Olympus just seemed to have missed the boat in understanding that the vast majority of its camera and HG/SHG lens users (and sales) came from keen amateurs, who bought not out of need, but out of desire to participate in a fun hobby.
    It's kind of sad; I have watched the old guard peel off here, one by one, into different systems. That, I submit, would not have happened if the e-7 would have been released.
    Leigh
    zippski
    The problem is I think that that Olympus did see the reduced buying trend coming, knew they did not ever have a enough of a market share to justify the continuation of the 4/3rd line of DSLRS . They instead decided to try and woo a market for smaller and lighter ,more portable ILC gear. They said they were going to try and attract an untapped market of people that wanted better quality than the P&Ss could muster!
    They knew that some 4/3rd users would switch or simply buy into m4/3 just to have the latest and greatest gear. Many somewhat serious amateurs are simply gear junkies, and the hype on the internet sells gear!
    What they did not see coming, was that market was already declining (and quickly) due to the trend toward cell phone usage, and phone cams that were getting better and better.
    They said when they introduced m4/3, they never intended to attract serious pros but got carried away with upgrading and producing more and more models and thought it would be enough to appease the 4/3rd crowd they left hanging in the wind, by telling us we could use the new bodies would work with with the old 4/3rd lenses. It was not until the introduction of the E-M1 that any of the 4/3rd lenses worked sufficiently well, but still lacking in many areas, such as C-AF which was, still is, and may always be, Olys Achilles heel. Now they have a miriad of other manufacturers that are trying to carve a piece of market share from a pie that is shrinking overall!
    No, kirk is not right in his assumptions that more automatic functions will save the camera manufacturing industry. Cell phone cams are more than sufficient for most picture takers who only post to electronic media and they are the vast majority of consumers of cameras today!
    David

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    Default Re: It's not just P&S troubles in the camera industry any more !

    Like Leigh and Ken I shoot with the e5 and I too do not have the need to upgrade. However I am attracted to the smaller sized cameras for portability, especially as we are taking holidays in the Lake District in the UK annually and a small all rounder appeals when trecking up mountains. I have my eye on the Sony DSC RX100iii.
    i think the honeymoon is over with cameras and the casual photographer, people just don't want the hassle.
    i live in a holiday destination, and more and more I see visitors taking pictures with their tablets, and how convenient is that? You can share your snaps with friends back home without the cost of printing, and any you might want to save can be stored on your computer.
    This leaves the camera makers with the professionals and the enthusiasts which is a restricted market and I think that there will be casualties as there are just too many cameras out there.

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    Default Re: It's not just P&S troubles in the camera industry any more !

    I am also still holding on to my 4/3 gear and using it! I have all the SGHs except the 300, and 5 more HGs (all exceptional glass as far as I am concerned). I still shoot the E-3 which has been relegated to my business to do art reproduction, and the E-5 around town or on day trips for most of my other shooting. I did buy the E-M1 and 12-40 Pro when they were released I probably will purchase the 40-150 Pro to complement the 12-40, with the intention of using it for portability on Holiday, as you say Guy. I have never felt the desire to switch systems, I manage very well with what I have!
    I am not as enamored with the E-M1, as I still am with the E-3 and 5, and I do not foresee purchasing another body!

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    Default Re: It's not just P&S troubles in the camera industry any more !

    Lots of gloom and doom.

    I've bought new gear; the camera shop I work with has good business going too with lots of customers always there buying and selling.
    Still have my E-1, love the E-M1, still have the old E-PL1 I got cheap, got a new E-PL7. Great cameras.

    I don't participate in the gloom and doom. That's for people who've lost their way.

    G

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    Default Re: It's not just P&S troubles in the camera industry any more !

    Concerning upgrading to a new camera BODY, I think that for people who already have a good set of lenses within a particular system (m4/3, Canon APS-C, Nikon FF, etc), there is still some possibility for manufacturers to sell a new body to them. Just not as frequently as in the past.

    I mean, for example, I have a Canon 60D. The 70D wasn't really enough of an improvement for me to upgrade. But I can foresee that an 80D might have enough - e.g. WiFi, touch screen, focus peeking, even better Live View AF, more focus points, perhaps more MP, and better high ISO noise handling, etc). The problem for the manufacturers is that most DSLR and ILC bodies are "good enough" for serious enthusiasts or even pros, so people probably won't upgrade as often. Until there is a big break-through...

    I understand why camera mamufacturers are worried, but back in the film days people surely were not buying every new model that came out. I mean, the intense buying of new cameras every few years must be a new digital-driven phenomena (new, rapidly improving technology), and now it is just slowing down and photography is returning to what it has traditionally been - a hobby for a small subset of people. IMHO.
    Rich
    Olympus E-M10; Panasonic GM5
    m4/3 lenses: Oly 75-300; Oly 14-42 f3.5-5.6 II R; Oly 17 f1.8; Oly 40-150 f4.0-5.6 R; Oly WCON-P01 adapter; Rokinon f7.5 fisheye; Sigma 19 f2.8; Pan 20 f1.7; Pan 12-35 f2.8; Pan 12-32

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    Default Re: It's not just P&S troubles in the camera industry any more !

    Quote Originally Posted by RAH View Post
    there is still some possibility for manufacturers to sell a new body to them. Just not as frequently as in the past.
    !!!!

    The problem for the manufacturers is that most DSLR and ILC bodies are "good enough" for serious enthusiasts or even pros, so people probably won't upgrade as often. Until there is a big break-through...
    !!!!
    and now it is just slowing down and photography is returning to what it has traditionally been - a hobby for a small subset of people. IMHO.
    Those are precisely the problems.

    Manufacturers depend on volume sales, and once the volume of sales declines, it is either find a different product to make up volume and profits, or have to charge more for the existing products to make up for lost profit.
    There is a limit to how much more anyone is willing to pay for a given product.
    Hasselblad recently learned that, the very hard way!
    David

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    Default Re: It's not just P&S troubles in the camera industry any more !

    If Oly had produced the e7, I would have seriously considered that option rather than spending big money to change systems. But, Oly made their choices and have produced a new system that serves the needs of some serious photographers. Time will tell. It may well be that the new generation will be satisfied with cell phone cameras which meet the need for Facebook and Instagram. How many people still print as opposed to posting online where IQ is not that big a deal for most people?


    Quote Originally Posted by zippski View Post
    Not to sound like a broken record, but I just can't get interested in any of the m4/3 stuff and chat. At all.

    Olympus just seemed to have missed the boat in understanding that the vast majority of its camera and HG/SHG lens users (and sales) came from keen amateurs, who bought not out of need, but out of desire to participate in a fun hobby. I am still having a blast with photography, only now I'm actually out shooting with the e-5 (and not worried about upgrading), instead of posting to forums about gear lust about gear which I do not own, and do not intend to own. Think about it...Why in the world would I anxiously await the arrival of the m4/3 300/4 when I shoot with a 300/2.8?

    It's kind of sad; I have watched the old guard peel off here, one by one, into different systems. That, I submit, would not have happened if the e-7 would have been released.

    Leigh
    zippski
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    Default Re: It's not just P&S troubles in the camera industry any more !

    Quote Originally Posted by jnicklin View Post
    If Oly had produced the e7, I would have seriously considered that option rather than spending big money to change systems. But, Oly made their choices and have produced a new system that serves the needs of some serious photographers. Time will tell. It may well be that the new generation will be satisfied with cell phone cameras which meet the need for Facebook and Instagram. How many people still print as opposed to posting online where IQ is not that big a deal for most people?
    People who were serious about their photography in prior times are just as serious today.

    The question of printing has come around several times on other, larger forums. It turns out that MANY many people continue to make fine prints ... it's the snapshooters and other high-volume users used to the dismal crap from drugstore and 1-hour photofinishers who have stopped printing, not the photographers. AND modern technology to make prints at home has become so sophisticated and so inexpensive that you can make far better prints than you once did.

    Meanwhile, the snapshooters have a new medium of electronic images to share their photos with. Cell phone cameras work well for that medium, you don't need SHG lenses and such to make a nice 3x5 inch photograph on a 200 dpi display. And they're doing more photography than anyone ever dreamed of before.

    The camera companies have to readjust their business to the new world, that's all. CEO of Leica said it very eloquently at Photokina: 'They (Nikon, Canon, Sony, etc) are exhausting their user base with too many products, cycles that are too fast, differences that are not important. It will be their undoing.'

    G

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    Default Re: It's not just P&S troubles in the camera industry any more !

    Quote Originally Posted by Edmunds View Post
    Just looking at my circle of friends, nobody I know has bought a new camera in the last 2 years. Nobody, not a single person.

    And its not smartphones, its more the fact that people just don't care anymore. The whole "I have to have a really good camera" craze is over. Half of all people seem to have an older DSLR that they pull out 4-5 times a year. They would rather buy $50 t-shirts than upgrade. The other half already own a camera in their phone.
    I think you have the essence of it. Apart from the gear obsessions on daily display in camera forums, representing a fraction of a percent of camera owners/buyers, there's little happening with cameras to trigger somebody to 1. enter the market or 2. upgrade existing gear. If you'd like to watch somebody's eyes virtually glaze over in real time, try bragging about how you "At last, can shoot at ISO6400!"

    Nobody 1. cares 2. understands.

    DSLRs especially are a stuck demographic and not a growing market. Once the aging males who overpopulate the demographic lose interest the market will probably collapse and they'll be relegated to specialty tools for a few shooters who need their unique abilities. Imagine having, say, a total of seven models to choose among and you're probably describing the DSLR market in a decade.

    I think mirrorless has a decent chance to grow a market but it's going to be a challenge. The built-in advantage is their well-integrated video, which dovetails nicely with good EVFs, small size and plethora of small lenses. But good luck getting millennials to jump in with gusto.

    As to Oly, last soccer season I shot with an E-5 and E-M1 and basically, the M1 spanks the 5 in most regards. And that's with 4/3 lenses. Oly likely did not have resources to bring both cameras forward and now that I more or less understand the M1 I likewise realize an E-7 would have sold in miniscule numbers, perhaps few enough to render it a loss-leader, losing money on each sale.

    Regardless, the ship has sailed. Am just glad I wasn't forced to adopt a completely new brand. I don't "unlearn" well.

    Cheers,
    Rick

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    Default Re: It's not just P&S troubles in the camera industry any more !

    [QUOTE=Godfrey;636090]People who were serious about their photography in prior times are just as serious today.

    "The question of printing has come around several times on other, larger forums. It turns out that MANY many people continue to make fine prints ... it's the snapshooters and other high-volume users used to the dismal crap from drugstore and 1-hour photofinishers who have stopped printing, not the photographers. AND modern technology to make prints at home has become so sophisticated and so inexpensive that you can make far better prints than you once did. "

    I have been in the retail photofinishing business in one way or another since 1972, and have dealt with the "drugstore" customers, and the one hour photo labs, that have now disappeared.
    The amount of people on the forums who still print seriously or Large, is miniscule compared to the amount of serious amatuers , with serious equipment that have stopped printing and only share on electronic media, or have relegated doing whatever few Larger prints to places like Costco.


    "Meanwhile, the snapshooters have a new medium of electronic images to share their photos with. Cell phone cameras work well for that medium, you don't need SHG lenses and such to make a nice 3x5 inch photograph on a 200 dpi display. And they're doing more photography than anyone ever dreamed of before".

    That is why Kodak as we knew it, is history!

    "The camera companies have to readjust their business to the new world, that's all. CEO of Leica said it very eloquently at Photokina: 'They (Nikon, Canon, Sony, etc) are exhausting their user base with too many products, cycles that are too fast, differences that are not important. It will be their undoing.' "

    I said that earlier. Too many models too fast, and too few really significant reasons to upgrade. Not to mention the state of most of the worlds economies and middle class buying power the past few years literally sucked, and still does!!
    Advances in technology and resulting products are outpacing the average persons financial or 'needs' ability to keep up. The TV producers learned this the hard way with the flop of 3D TV. Software developers are especially bad, expecting people to pay for insignificant upgrades frequently!

    David
    Last edited by dh202; 02-02-2015 at 05:24 PM.

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    Default Re: It's not just P&S troubles in the camera industry any more !

    Quote Originally Posted by dh202 View Post

    I have been in the retail photofinishing business in one way or another since 1972, and have dealt with the "drugstore" customers, and the one hour photo labs, that have now disappeared.
    The amount of people on the forums who still print seriously or Large, is miniscule compared to the amount of serious amatuers , with serious equipment that have stopped printing and only share on electronic media, or have relegated doing whatever few Larger prints to places like Costco.


    I disagree. Every photographer I feel comfortable calling such prints regularly. I also have been in and around photography professionally since the late 1960s. I don't expect any serious photographer to go to a photofinisher or lab to print these days. For a couple of hundred dollars, you buy an excellent printer and can make thousands of better prints that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by dh202 View Post
    That is why Kodak as we knew it, is history!


    Kodak is history for many many reasons, the explosion of online photo sharing is not the cause of their collapse. They managed their money poorly, and managed their innovative edge—their technology—even more poorly. The explosion of online photo sharing should have been a plus to their business if they did the right things, but they didn't.

    G

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    Default Re: It's not just P&S troubles in the camera industry any more !

    I just watched the movie "Trip to Italy", a British style comedy.

    Its basically about two guys traveling through Italy. Noticed something - one of the actors asks the other to take a picture of him in front of a famous statue. The other one pulls out his iphone and asks "Do we really have to do this?" The implication being, you could just get this same picture, hell, even a better picture, online or in a book, and say "Yeah, I've been there!", so why would I fill up my phone's memory with that?

    Then they have a photographer flown in to take pictures of them for a few hours.

    I think this is where the world is heading, and I quite like it.
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    Default Re: It's not just P&S troubles in the camera industry any more !


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    Default Re: It's not just P&S troubles in the camera industry any more !

    Thom has way too much of a negative slant. Not sure what kind of revolutionary upgrades he expects camera makers to introduce.
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    Default Re: It's not just P&S troubles in the camera industry any more !

    Quote Originally Posted by dh202 View Post
    This must contain typos, right?: "So, at the end of this year, 40% of you will be shooting with Canon ILCs, 33% with Nikon ILCs, and something like 17% with Sony ILCs." I assume he means "DSLRs" not "ILCs" even if he is being sarcastic. In the article I don't think he even mentions Canon or Nikon ILCs.
    Rich
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    Default Re: It's not just P&S troubles in the camera industry any more !

    ILC = Interchangable Lens Camera. Its either DLSR or Mirrorless.
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    Default Re: It's not just P&S troubles in the camera industry any more !

    Quote Originally Posted by Edmunds View Post
    ILC = Interchangable Lens Camera. Its either DLSR or Mirrorless.
    Um, I disagree. I think that "ILC" stands for Interchangeable Lens Compact" and means NOT a DSLR. In other words, ILC and DSLR are terms used to differentiate between the 2 primary types of interchangeable lens cameras - mirrorless ones (ILC) and mirrored ones (reflex - DSLRs).
    Rich
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    m4/3 lenses: Oly 75-300; Oly 14-42 f3.5-5.6 II R; Oly 17 f1.8; Oly 40-150 f4.0-5.6 R; Oly WCON-P01 adapter; Rokinon f7.5 fisheye; Sigma 19 f2.8; Pan 20 f1.7; Pan 12-35 f2.8; Pan 12-32

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    Default Re: It's not just P&S troubles in the camera industry any more !

    I did a search and your both wrong...
    http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/ILC
    nothing at all about cameras

    I actually like the second one -International Linear Collider

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  33. #25
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    Default Re: It's not just P&S troubles in the camera industry any more !

    I see that Dpreview uses "ILC" to mean what Edmunds said - "interchangeable lens camera" of any type, so I guess I was wrong. I say "I guess" because I have seen it used the other way too. Perhaps the term "mirrorless" is the preferred shortcut nowadays? I have seen MILC too, which is good I think, although perhaps is too close to MILF, which is another thing entirely!
    Rich
    Olympus E-M10; Panasonic GM5
    m4/3 lenses: Oly 75-300; Oly 14-42 f3.5-5.6 II R; Oly 17 f1.8; Oly 40-150 f4.0-5.6 R; Oly WCON-P01 adapter; Rokinon f7.5 fisheye; Sigma 19 f2.8; Pan 20 f1.7; Pan 12-35 f2.8; Pan 12-32

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